Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[liamharry]

You battery aficionados out there probably know this and can tell me whether I am going totally off plot, but came across this bit of info written Jim Harrison back in 2018, a guest blogger at Lincoln Technology Communications about the Tesla battery cell. He was writing about the new 2170 battery.

In effect he is saying a 70mV reduction in charge voltage reduces capacity by 10%. My own battery being capped by 100mV’s, which has resulted in almost 12% reduction in capacity.

So if the article suggests that a battery charged to 4.2V can cycle 300 - 500 times, then a battery that is generally charged to no more than 3.90V (assuming capped or voluntarily) can be cycled between 2,400 - 4000 times?

I know I am over simplifying this and not taking into account specific Tesla cell chemistry, but - I am not sure that means if eg you have a 100% SoC range of 256 miles and charge from 100% and discharge to 0% every time the battery/pack will only last (256X500) 128,000 miles, but likewise if you only ever charged to 3.90V (providing 220 miles in my case) and discharge to 0% each time that the battery would last (220X4000) 880,000 miles.

Is that why Tesla would like to drop (sorry .. for some of us has, have capped) the max voltage by 100mV on our older packs.

 

[SmartElectric]

the post you are referencing was some low charge rate (29 kWh) that seemed way below what a simply cold battery would charge at on a Supercharger. Maybe you can educate with actual numbers?

I have an original 2013 Model S85. On 5C day when car has been sitting and then driven a short distance to a supercharger the maximum rate is absolutely around 30kW. It’s easy to see this in my car because I have the old pre autopilot screen that shows the yellow dotted line for regen maximum. If the maximum regen is capped lower than the maximum 60 with a yellow line I absolutely see slower supercharging rates. Tesla charging behaviour is closely aligned with battery temperature. It takes real effort to warm a battery sufficient to get good charging speeds. See Bjørn Nyland YouTube where he had a variety of Tesla and non-Tesla EVs in Norway. Tons of detailed charging graphs with excellent commentary. That’s how I educated myself. But I don’t expect other owners to be as geeky as me. My point is the original wiki post of this thread covers cold battery vs capped voltage.

 

[sorka]

Good luck!
Are you still in limbo with the battery warning?

Yes, and now that it's staged I'm going to bring it on Tuesday after all and show them logs for charge rate, currently capacity in kWH and max power at 90% with max battery ready along with power curve and tell them in writing that when I get the car back it better be as good as it is now on counts or I'll retain my own attorney and start the arbitration process.

It's one thing to have software downloaded that caps any of these battery characteristics out in the field, but it's something else entirely if I give them the car with these capabilities and get something back with less.

I'm charging to 90% and at 88% I'm going to enable max battery, something rarely do, and then go out log the s%#! out of it. I already have a recent supercharging session that will suffice.

Then after that, I'm disconnecting the 12 volt battery again until Tuesday morning when I drive it to the service center. I don't want them trying a forced remote install prior to my scheduled appointment the night before.

 

[First EV]

Sorka, why not? They may be able to make your battery warning go away. Then you wouldn't have to waste your time taking it in for service.

 

[Gixx1300R]

I'll just leave this here for everyone to ponder

 

[mvotb]

Excellent, now explain what gives Tesla the right to unilaterally change the cars battery capacity and performance, that THEY sold to the owners, to extend the batteries life. Can't wait for the answer.

Stiiiiiillll waiting. The crickets are quite loud today.

 

[Evoforce]

I'll just leave this here for everyone to ponder

View attachment 486188

You are lucky to have 237 miles at your 90%.

 

[Gixx1300R]

You are lucky to have 237 miles at your 90%.

That is ideal range, not rated range. I lost 30 miles from an update

 

[cpa]

That is obviously a plausible theory, albeit not one to which I subscribe. I would be more inclined to agree it, if they had taken this action 'to extend the life of the battery' across the entire fleet, or even the entire pre facelift fleet for batterygate affected cars. But they haven’t. They have only taken this action on a few, specifically selected cars. I find it almost impossible to conclude this was done by random selection. There must surely be a reason why they decided to affect some cars, but not the majority. And I find it almost impossible not to conclude that the reason is there is an issue with the batteries in those selected cars. I cannot imagine even a far fetched alternative reason, but I am willing to listen to any suggestions.

Yes, indeed. In fact, Tesla could have done this across the entire fleet by giving us owners an option with an inducement. We could opt in to receive a capped battery and/or reduced SC speeds with the understanding that Tesla would extend its battery warranty on those vehicles another four years (Twelve years total.) Tesla would promise no more software updates to gaff the battery. Tesla would have objective results for battery degradation that would be honored under warranty instead of their current fuzzy logic.

Or, we could roll the dice and opt out of this agreement and keep our batteries the same with the understanding that the warranty period on those vehicles would expire six months after we signed the waiver.

Or something along those lines.

Many people who use their Teslas as commuter cars or who take short trips would leap at the chance to extend the warranty in exchange for reduced range and slower SC speeds. Others would just let the chips fall where they may. But at least we would have the opportunity to decide for ourselves. Instead, we have Big Brother, and fie on anyone who speaks ill of Big Brother.

 

[cpa]

I know it is hard to see. But while Supercharging last night, I noticed the battery picture on the dashboard (binnacle for Ferrycraigs ) showed 38% while the touchscreen remained unchanged from when I plugged in 12 minutes earlier (24%).


This is just too bizarre. I wonder if this is somehow related to this current issue, or if it is some programmer's way of thumbing his nose at us?

 

[omarsultan]

@Gixx1300R That's not all at weird these days--even when charing at home, there seems to be an aggressive taper that kicks in at ~80% SOC and by the time you cross 90% SOC its a handful of kW. That's why I said a new posts ago that its not worth trying to charge above 90% anymore. Here is a recent charge at home:

Here is a charge trying to top off the car to 100% ahead of a trip:

The marker is at ~90% and it took about 1:40 to get to 97% where the car finally just gives up trying to charge.

 

[boywonder]

I know it is hard to see. But while Supercharging last night, I noticed the battery picture on the dashboard (binnacle for Ferrycraigs ) showed 38% while the touchscreen remained unchanged from when I plugged in 12 minutes earlier (24%).
View attachment 486218

This is just too bizarre. I wonder if this is somehow related to this current issue, or if it is some programmer's way of thumbing his nose at us?

I think this might be deliberate as it’s something I reported here last week or the week before.

I believe that the range reported in the binnacle or instrument cluster is higher than the range reported by the nav system.

A few times I’ve tried to complete a 100+ mile journey with 140 or more miles showing in the binnacle that the nav system then indicated was impossible without running out of charge.

Either it’s just the winter effect or something fishy is going on.

 

[What Gas]

Yes, and now that it's staged I'm going to bring it on Tuesday after all and show them logs for charge rate, currently capacity in kWH and max power at 90% with max battery ready along with power curve and tell them in writing that when I get the car back it better be as good as it is now on counts or I'll retain my own attorney and start the arbitration process.

It's one thing to have software downloaded that caps any of these battery characteristics out in the field, but it's something else entirely if I give them the car with these capabilities and get something back with less.

I'm charging to 90% and at 88% I'm going to enable max battery, something rarely do, and then go out log the s%#! out of it. I already have a recent supercharging session that will suffice.

Then after that, I'm disconnecting the 12 volt battery again until Tuesday morning when I drive it to the service center. I don't want them trying a forced remote install prior to my scheduled appointment the night before.

When you bring them the logs, do you think they’ll even look at them and take you concerns seriously?
The reason why I ask is because I, bringing my car in next week for a diagnostic on the battery and my blank screen when I press on my release notes.

Tesla constantly throughs it in our faces, if you no longer have a warranty, but yet every time they send updates OTA, it seems like those updates change the car in some

 

[sorka]

Sorka, why not? They may be able to make your battery warning go away. Then you wouldn't have to waste your time taking it in for service.

They said they won't even check it in without v10 installed and they asked me to do it before I bring it in. Obviously I'm not going to do that.

 

[fbitz777]

They said they won't even check it in without v10 installed and they asked me to do it before I bring it in. Obviously I'm not going to do that.

Here is an idea:
The plaintiff's lawyer buys your car and stores it until a jury trial. Then he brings it and can do a live update and show the range loss in front of jury...nothing like an instant range loss to make the case.

(could backfire if the update does not cause a range loss)

 

[Gixx1300R]

@Gixx1300R That's not all at weird these days--even when charing at home, there seems to be an aggressive taper that kicks in at ~80% SOC and by the time you cross 90% SOC its a handful of kW. That's why I said a new posts ago that its not worth trying to charge above 90% anymore. Here is a recent charge at home:

View attachment 486229
Here is a charge trying to top off the car to 100% ahead of a trip:

View attachment 486230
The marker is at ~90% and it took about 1:40 to get to 97% where the car finally just gives up trying to charge.

Yes it sucks because there are areas that I travel where I need to be at 100%. Tesla needs to held accountable.

 

[DJRas]

They said they won't even check it in without v10 installed and they asked me to do it before I bring it in. Obviously I'm not going to do that.

If they do that... I'll send you the email address of the Cal Bureau of Automotive Repairs.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

I know it is hard to see. But while Supercharging last night, I noticed the battery picture on the dashboard (binnacle for Ferrycraigs ) showed 38% while the touchscreen remained unchanged from when I plugged in 12 minutes earlier (24%).
View attachment 486218

This is just too bizarre. I wonder if this is somehow related to this current issue, or if it is some programmer's way of thumbing his nose at us?

I have had this several times, where the Main Screen shows one figure but the battery icon (in the, cough #binnacle) shows a different figure. It appears that it is just the main Screen freezing. A reboot fixes it.

For the pedants it’s either 'Instrument Binnacle', or 'dashboard'. I’m not sure they mean different things but to all intents and purposes they are synonymous.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

I think this might be deliberate as it’s something I reported here last week or the week before.

I believe that the range reported in the binnacle or instrument cluster is higher than the range reported by the nav system.

A few times I’ve tried to complete a 100+ mile journey with 140 or more miles showing in the binnacle that the nav system then indicated was impossible without running out of charge.

Either it’s just the winter effect or something fishy is going on.

I don’t believe it’s either. The range indicated on the dash, and the range indicated in the Nav will always be different, because they use different consumption figures. Those people that actually achieve the range indicated on the dash are likely to be using the help of a flatbed or tow truck.

 

[sorka]

When you bring them the logs, do you think they’ll even look at them and take you concerns seriously?
The reason why I ask is because I, bringing my car in next week for a diagnostic on the battery and my blank screen when I press on my release notes.

Tesla constantly throughs it in our faces, if you no longer have a warranty, but yet every time they send updates OTA, it seems like those updates change the car in some

It's all going to be in the email I send the service adviser as a receipt and proof for before vs after.

Will they take it seriously? Probably not. But they'll know that I am taking it seriously and having everything documented in writing before they take possession of the vehicle is my notice to them that they'd better return the same or better than before.