Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[MP3Mike]

NHTSA has finally made their determination on the defect petition that was submitted related to this and battery fires:

On October 1, 2019, the Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) opened DP19-005 to evaluate the petitioner’s request. Information provided by Tesla in response to ODI's information request letter for DP19-005 indicated that a firmware update that may limit maximum voltage was installed in certain MY 2012 through 2016 Model S vehicles (subject vehicles). The voltage limiting firmware is a dynamic algorithm that is enabled in vehicles with high Supercharging use histories, which contributes to high usage stress to the high-voltage (HV) battery. Tesla sold approximately 61,781 subject vehicles in the United States and, through August 2021, the voltage limiting firmware had been enabled in approximately 2,062 vehicles. Through December 2020, ODI identified 59 complaints from consumers alleging reductions in battery capacity (52) or charging speed (7) in the subject vehicles. Log data from these vehicles showed that the voltage limiting firmware had been enabled in about 58 percent (30 of 52) of the complaints alleging range loss. Subsequent updates have restored some or all of the battery capacity to vehicles affected by the voltage limiting firmware coupled with updates enhancing BMS battery brick monitoring algorithms. None of the complaint vehicles have reported any thermal incidents or other safety hazards related to the HV battery.

NHTSA is authorized to issue an order requiring notification and remedy of a defect if the Agency’s investigation shows a defect in the design, construction, or performance of a motor vehicle that presents an unreasonable risk to safety. 49 U.S.C. §§ 30102(a)(9), 30118. Given the absence of any incidents in the United States related to fast charging, and the absence of any such incidents globally since May 2019, it is unlikely that an order concerning the notification and remedy of a safety-related defect would be issued due to any investigation opened as a result of granting this petition. Therefore, upon full consideration of the information presented in the petition, and the potential risks to safety, the petition is denied. The denial of this petition does not foreclose the Agency from taking further action if warranted, or the potential for a future finding that a safety-related defect exists based upon additional information the Agency may receive.See Docket No. NHTSA-2020-0104

It was denied, no formal investigation will take place.

One interesting thing is that they say that there were 2,062 vehicles that had the battery voltage limited. More than were stated in @DJRas's law suit.

 

[Gixx1300R]

U.S. government rejects 2019 petition to investigate Tesla vehicle fires

 

[JRP3]

Infer what you will: Human error? Faulty software at the service center? Overworked mobile techs servicing warranty repairs? Lazy office person/scheduler?

Yes. Tesla has long standing holes in their communication and service network. Most people get good service but some get a runaround and end up in a black hole. It's an issue that has never been properly addressed. An unfortunate aspect of a fast growing innovative company is a high degree of chaos.

 

[lightningltd]

Whelp - I opened a service case about 2 weeks ago with Tesla regarding the range loss and they leaned on the normal degradation argument and closed my service case. I had one more decent road trip last weekend to the coast and on the way home - the Nav battery estimates both to the Supercharger and home were all over the map, updating +-20% at times. Then woke up this morning, and the car is dead. TeslaFi says my battery went from 80-100% overnight (Wasn't plugged in), and lost all it's range. About 20 errors on the screen. So perhaps the range wonkiness was due to impending failure that their error checking has no idea about until it actually happens. I'm just thankful it happened in my garage.

View attachment 717014View attachment 717013

Are you by coincidence out of warrantee?

 

[bhzmark]

Well said

Pedantics have no power to end an NHTSA investigation and the office of defect investigations has no disagree button. The facts are being investigated. The truth is being established. There's no need to worry about the truth, it's what we all want. This investigation will help us and it will help Tesla.

 

[cpa]

One interesting thing is that they say that there were 2,062 vehicles that had the battery voltage limited. More than were stated in @DJRas's law suit.

We don't know the database accessed by the government versus the database turned over in discovery or in discussion regarding the lawsuit. It could be that many of the vehicles included in the government's database were loaners or vehicles used by Tesla itself that had the voltage limitation imposed, or were sitting around in Tesla's used car inventory at the time of the suit and investigation.

The difference is around 400 vehicles if I recall the number revealed in the settlement correctly. I think those groups that I mentioned above could explain most of this difference.

 

[cpa]

An unfortunate aspect of a fast growing innovative company is a high degree of chaos.

Correct! There will be chaos and dysfunction as the company grows and learns.

I am concerned that Tesla will not implement any sort of customer relations department at all. I hope I am wrong.

Maybe with Claire dumping Musk, he will have more time to solve this thorny problem.

 

[JRP3]

The issue predates that relationship, plus now that he's single he may spend more time searching for someone new. Unfortunately I don't think he knows how badly the service and communication has been for some people.

 

[olsch01]

So, if I understand you correctly, you were concerned about your car's battery. You contacted Tesla service, and they said all was OK (within specs) using their top of the line diagnostic tools. You go home with that warm fuzzy feeling that your car is the way it is supposed to be despite what you have experienced.

Then, a short time later after returning from a short trip, your car battery behaves wonky and dies with a bunch of error codes that spit out.

Why are we to believe anything that Tesla service tells us? Do they not have the proper equipment to perform these important tests? Are the service technicians incompetent and/or lazy? Does Corporate gaff the diagnostic equipment so that every test every time shows that our cars are just fine?

What a con. It is incredulous to me that in 2021 with millions of Teslas on the road, that the service centers cannot determine whether a battery or the BMS is starting to fail. If that indeed is the case, EV adoption by the masses will be much more difficult, since information about the health of the system is not available until the system fails.

At least with ICE, gauges can help sense if there might be major issues, and modest record keeping of MPG can alert us if we think something is wrong. And ICE mechanics have everything at the ready to test and determine if there are issues with the drive train or cooling system.

Well mostly correct. The Diagnosis was 100% over the air, and when I specifically asked if my car was currently capped there was only mention that packs naturally degrade, and the capping logic is built in.

But yes, Issue opened 9/13 - Message received 9/17 that all is well (it wasn't), 10/2 - battery is dead. Interestingly they are trying to tell me I ran the car out of range - I didn't - it was charged to 80% in my garage and still sits at 80% - Except for Block 53 that's dead (or so the BMS says). Although the first indication that something was wrong is that the mobile app told me the car needed to be plugged in because it was "Out of Range at 99%" (Wish I grabbed a screenshot of that!)

 

[Adri]

Well mostly correct. The Diagnosis was 100% over the air, and when I specifically asked if my car was currently capped there was only mention that packs naturally degrade, and the capping logic is built in.

But yes, Issue opened 9/13 - Message received 9/17 that all is well (it wasn't), 10/2 - battery is dead. Interestingly they are trying to tell me I ran the car out of range - I didn't - it was charged to 80% in my garage and still sits at 80% - Except for Block 53 that's dead (or so the BMS says). Although the first indication that something was wrong is that the mobile app told me the car needed to be plugged in because it was "Out of Range at 99%" (Wish I grabbed a screenshot of that!)
View attachment 717906

That looks a replacement battery is needed.
What did Tesla have to say when you returned with a dead battery?

 

[Battpower]

they are trying to tell me I ran the car out of range

Which in a sense it did! The battery as a whole won't work, but one brick has evidently ceased functionning (while all the others look reasonable. Within the brick most likely one or two cells may be dead...... I'm guessing if the voltage reading for brick 53 is real, then a whole bunch of energy got dissipated within the brick to effectively run it down.

I forget if 53 was one effected by the BMB corrosion issue, but I suppose there is no rule that says that voltage reading is in error. All the other bricks look reasonably balanced and charged, so brick 53 was presumably capable of passing current through it.

Block 53 that's dead (or so the BMS says)

Either way the brick / block failed - way differently / sudden change compared with the others - since all the bricks charge with very nearly identical current. Or there was a relatively sudden failure of the corresponding sensing circuit.

I guess if the sensors fail there isn't much that can be done to fix the invalid data without actually fixing the sensor.

It will be interesting to hear how this shakes out.

 

[Droschke]

The video discusses the topic of this thread:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/10/10/tesla-full-self-driving/?outputType=amp

 

[zzzzoeffff]

Next chapter in this episode, S85, 2014,
my car is still under warranty, have lost between 30-40% available capacity since the 2019 FW.
Mind you, and this is a extremely important item:
- I measure energy going into the car (from 5% to 95% battery), measured at the electricity net
- I do not look at the range that the car predicts
A full charge is between 55-60kWh far away from the 85kWh the car should eat.
The estimated range that the car displays when full is a extremely optimistic value coming close to its new value
but that range is a remote dream, achieving half of that is a miracle.
When empty, the car also displays its used energy and that is never above 55kWh.
Service team claims my battery is in excellent condition.
I have sent my car several times into service to get the capacity issue fixed, they never changed anything.
They can not help. This is done at corporate level/FW.

I entered a warranty claim and this is one of the replies the Tesla counciler returned:
"Tesla wijst er in de NVLW
voorts uitdrukkelijk op dat eventuele merkbare veranderingen van de prestaties van de batterij als gevolg
van softwareupdates niet onder de Beperkte garantie batterij en aandrijfeenheid vallen."
When translated from dutch to english this means:
According to the Tesla New Car Warranty, changes to the battery capacity or performance due to firmware updates are not covered by warranty.
In normal language: Tesla can reduce the available battery capacity by firmware.
I would even adjust this to:
Tesla can and will reduce the available battery capacity by firmware.

 

[aerodyne]

Next chapter in this episode, S85, 2014,
my car is still under warranty, have lost between 30-40% available capacity since the 2019 FW.
Mind you, and this is a extremely important item:
- I measure energy going into the car (from 5% to 95% battery), measured at the electricity net
- I do not look at the range that the car predicts
A full charge is between 55-60kWh far away from the 85kWh the car should eat.
The estimated range that the car displays when full is a extremely optimistic value coming close to its new value
but that range is a remote dream, achieving half of that is a miracle.
When empty, the car also displays its used energy and that is never above 55kWh.
Service team claims my battery is in excellent condition.
I have sent my car several times into service to get the capacity issue fixed, they never changed anything.
They can not help. This is done at corporate level/FW.

I entered a warranty claim and this is one of the replies the Tesla counciler returned:
"Tesla wijst er in de NVLW
voorts uitdrukkelijk op dat eventuele merkbare veranderingen van de prestaties van de batterij als gevolg
van softwareupdates niet onder de Beperkte garantie batterij en aandrijfeenheid vallen."
When translated from dutch to english this means:
According to the Tesla New Car Warranty, changes to the battery capacity or performance due to firmware updates are not covered by warranty.
In normal language: Tesla can reduce the available battery capacity by firmware.
I would even adjust this to:
Tesla can and will reduce the available battery capacity by firmware.

It is likely your battery will fail soon. Hopefully it will fail under warranty.

Do what you can to document any error messages that show up.

One idea is to get a CANbus reader, adapter cable, and app like SMT. It should show over 70KwH nominal.

 

[bhzmark]

It is likely your battery will fail soon.

Conveniently you are in Europe. Drive to your nearest no speed limit autobahn, and do a long high speed run flat out floored — until the battery fails. seriously.

btw your current battery issue has nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread.

 

[aerodyne]

It is likely your battery will fail soon. Hopefully it will fail under warranty.

Do what you can to document any error messages that show up.

Conveniently you are in Europe. Drive to your nearest no speed limit autobahn, and do a long high speed run flat out floored — until the battery fails. seriously.

btw your current battery issue has nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread.

I think the OP is linking his loss of range to the 2019 update.

I have had very little loss since the update, and it has mostly come back.

Below is SMT screenshot just now:

 

[bhzmark]

Yes, I know he is linking it. But he is wrong. His battery has other issues and you were right to predict that his battery fail — it will because it has other issues.

 

[fbitz777]

Not to barge back in this thread but my '17 X75D 's rated range has been slowly creeping up from 202 to 211 (new was 237). I upgraded MCU and to HW3 which caused a lot of new upgrades (was stuck at 2020.48 before)

 

[mymagiccarpet]

I get that this is emotional for some.

Sure. I’m still trying to figure out what it is for you and why you are here at all.

 

[bhzmark]

Sure. I’m still trying to figure out what it is for you and why you are here at all.

Imagine a forum where people share their information, evidence, thoughts and analysis, and occasionally, the participants benefit from that.

Others might concern themselves with questioning the motivations of others. I don't see much benefit in that so I ignore those, usually with the button.