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The existence of an access charge for 60kWh cars was discussed on this forum on August 11. Admittedly, user reports aren't exactly the best way for Tesla to communicate.
I don't agree that there has been any material misrepresentation by Tesla. My MVPA says that the supercharger hardware is included. No mention of the access cost. When Musk announced the pricing, he explicitly said that there would be a charge for access for 60kWh packs. Frankly, I was expecting a subscription charge (possibly waived for Signature holders), so I was delighted that the subscription charge is waived for all 85kWh cars.
I don't agree that there has been any material misrepresentation by Tesla. My MVPA says that the supercharger hardware is included. No mention of the access cost. When Musk announced the pricing, he explicitly said that there would be a charge for access for 60kWh packs. Frankly, I was expecting a subscription charge (possibly waived for Signature holders), so I was delighted that the subscription charge is waived for all 85kWh cars.
I think there has simply been way too much complaining on the forum. Between the tires, to offering the grey wheels, to the order of delivery, to the cost of service, and now this issue. Tesla is a start up. We all lose if they fail. They need every possible dollar to succeed. This bitching has taken place in the same week it has been reported that they are forced to both re-negotiate their loan payment with the federal government (and delay an interest payment until February) and issue 130 M USD in stock at a price below current market.
So, they are in trouble. We ALL LOSE IF THEY FAIL. So everyone needs to relax and hope for the company to succeed. If you don't want the car, don't buy it. I, for one, am really pleased they are planning to put fast charging stations all over the place. I am also pleased I will have a service center near me. These things cost money. I hope they really do it. I also hope that the company succeeds. And, by the way, I don't work for Tesla and own zero stock. I have ordered a car and hope they will be around to support it.
People on this forum as acting like babies. The biggest babies are the ones the are crying because the value of their car is less because they have offered the same color wheel to someone else. Please be serous. If they can sell so more wheels, ITS GOOD FOR THE COMPANY AND GOOD FOR THEIR FUTURE EXISTENCE AND YOUR FUTURE ABILITY TO SERVICE YOUR CAR.
If they don't earn a profit they cannot invest in infrastructure and cannot service and support your car. I cannot stand to listen to grown men and women complain about nothing. The wheel issue is the worst I have ever seen. Listen carefully people, Tesla is in trouble. They are doing their best. GM was in business a hundred years and still went bankrupt. Starting a car company is hard.
So, they are in trouble. We ALL LOSE IF THEY FAIL. So everyone needs to relax and hope for the company to succeed. If you don't want the car, don't buy it. I, for one, am really pleased they are planning to put fast charging stations all over the place. I am also pleased I will have a service center near me. These things cost money. I hope they really do it. I also hope that the company succeeds. And, by the way, I don't work for Tesla and own zero stock. I have ordered a car and hope they will be around to support it.
People on this forum as acting like babies. The biggest babies are the ones the are crying because the value of their car is less because they have offered the same color wheel to someone else. Please be serous. If they can sell so more wheels, ITS GOOD FOR THE COMPANY AND GOOD FOR THEIR FUTURE EXISTENCE AND YOUR FUTURE ABILITY TO SERVICE YOUR CAR.
If they don't earn a profit they cannot invest in infrastructure and cannot service and support your car. I cannot stand to listen to grown men and women complain about nothing. The wheel issue is the worst I have ever seen. Listen carefully people, Tesla is in trouble. They are doing their best. GM was in business a hundred years and still went bankrupt. Starting a car company is hard.
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They can’t even stay on message about about what the cost is for. George says it costs a lot to do this and I buy that, but the letter that was sent out flat out lies to customers with this line: “Supercharger hardware and software must be calibrated and tested during installation, so it must be done during production of your car. We cannot add Supercharging to your car after you take delivery.”
The line is straight from the high pressure sales playbook.
Make an offer that requires the purchaser to buy now or they lose out forever, make the offer time limited, offer to “discount” the item so it is more attractive and make the item offered appear so useful and exclusive that only a fool would decline.
I was thinking the model S was an advanced car. So even though the 60KW cars are identical and the hardware and software is already in the car, there is some magic “calibration” that can only happen at the factory, not the service center. Oh, by the way, you have just 10 days to decide.
Well, So much for living in a world of precision engineering. Apparently there is a smithy who lives near the Fremont factory and when he is not making axes, barrel bands and horse shoes, he is hammering out the equipment for the most advanced electric cars in the world.
The line is straight from the high pressure sales playbook.
Make an offer that requires the purchaser to buy now or they lose out forever, make the offer time limited, offer to “discount” the item so it is more attractive and make the item offered appear so useful and exclusive that only a fool would decline.
I was thinking the model S was an advanced car. So even though the 60KW cars are identical and the hardware and software is already in the car, there is some magic “calibration” that can only happen at the factory, not the service center. Oh, by the way, you have just 10 days to decide.
Well, So much for living in a world of precision engineering. Apparently there is a smithy who lives near the Fremont factory and when he is not making axes, barrel bands and horse shoes, he is hammering out the equipment for the most advanced electric cars in the world.
Sure it competes, but we've heard that the SAE DC standard is electrically compatible with something tesla does with DC charging.
Personally I care more about finding out about SAE DC support than CHAdeMO. The questions are if they are coming, and how much. Every couple months are we going to get new option for another 1-2k? Lets just get it out there so people are not over buying -- no one (other than home high speed chargers) would get twin chargers if SAE DC or CHAdeMO support was an option.
teslasguy
MSP P#1117
This post is way out of line in my opinion. I'm getting a P85, I'm a Tesla stockholder and a big Tesla fan. But I believe it does no favor to Tesla to belittle their early supporters that have signed on for one of the largest purchases in their life, and are feeling like the game is being changed them after the game has started. I personally think forums like this that provide a place for them to express their feelings serve a healthy purpose for Tesla in the long run. So I think you are the one that needs to back off!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, they screwed up--over and over again. As you point out, they self-reported that they screwed up. They have management problems. We all lose if they fail. Guess what? I'm not in the bailout business. I'm not affected by the S60 because I am getting an S85, but I'm really angry over this. I have no idea what fee that's strictly-speaking allowed by the contract will be coming up for *me* next. I live by my agreements, and I expect the same in return. Having said that, if they can find loopholes in their contracts ("access" vs "hardware" or whatever), that's their right. They can certainly extort more money from me after they've already committed to an agreement. But they are going to hear from people about it. In another thread someone was complaining about some wording in either the warranty or the MVPA and someone said, "Oh, don't worry about that! It's standard language!". In law, you MUST worry about things like that, for the reasons we see now.
Did you actually think this statement would be effective when you typed it?
I'm sure you'll also be fine with it if they *don't* end up erecting a single fast charging station outside of California, since they need every dollar they can get and they must succeed or we all fail. Or if the 2 year targets become 5 years, even though the S60s outside of California will have essentially lent an additional $2,000 to Tesla, it will be perfectly fine with you, because they must succeed.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Your entire post was a whine. It's almost comical that it is calling other people babies. Also note that it probably violates the T&Cs of the site when you call an individual an "idiot".
Starting a car company is hard: true. Many have failed. Tesla might be another failure, but we all hope it succeeds. They have a lot going against them. But I'm not going to "shut up" (as you demand), when they mistreat their best customers, attempt to fly in the face of consumer protection regulation, and walk the extortion line, just because I want them to succeed.
kevincwelch
Active Member
I think you're doing a disservice to the TMC community by saying this. You're not a stockholder, so your speculation about the financial status of Tesla is unfounded. I would leave it up to the shareholders in this forum to speculate about Tesla's finances.
I've said it before and I will say it again: People are entitled to their opinions. One opinion is just as valid as the next. For Sigs, maybe they should get something for plunking down $40k 3 years ago. So, if they're unhappy that P8995 (me) can get grey wheels, fine. Just as AnOutsider proposed: What is the value of a Signature Series Model S? At this point, doesn't seem like much. I'd be pissed as well.
For those with modest incomes, consider this: Tesla should consider themselves lucky they're even capturing this group of customers, for they are the ones that would ordinarily by $30,000 cars, not $65,000 cars. Tesla should be thanking profusely every 40 kWh buyer (they should be thanking us all, but my point is made).
So, give us a break. We're here to discuss and have a rant or two.
sublimaze1
8Dec2012 / Leeroy Jenkins
Tommy
Member
I am reminded of the wry saying "No good deed goes unpunished" regarding Tesla's SC announcement and their pricing structure. Neither reservationists for the 85Kwh or 60Kwh battery should have been surprised or disillusioned if Tesla had charged a fee to SC. The fact that Tesla was able to provide free charging at all should have been reason to congratulate this accomplishment by all Tesla enthusiasts. Sadly, we have a group of folks feeling they got shafted by Tesla because Tesla's "good deed" didn't extend to them and that's not Tesla's fault.
Folks, lets keep it civil. All facts and honest opinions are welcome. Just check the tone. We don't care for whining nor name calling.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Ok so I'm getting the 85, in Europe, where we might never see a Supercharger for all I know. But come on Tesla, this is just dumb. Look at the following part of the e-mail FAQ:
SUPERCHARGING HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE WAS INCLUDED IN MY PURCHASE AGREEMENT. DO I NEED TO ADD THIS OPTION?
You only need to add this option if you would like to have access to the Supercharger network. The current price to install, configure and test the hardware and software required to enable Supercharging is $2,000. Because we have included this hardware in your car at no additional cost, you only need to pay $1,000 to configure, enable and test the Supercharger components. This does not mean you have to enable this option. We planned the hardware into your car to give you a choice when pricing became available. Just because we've planned to install hardware in your car does not mean you have to order the option. Please use the buttons above to indicate whether you would like this option added to your Model S or would prefer to decline it.
Talk about changing the rules as you go! In the bold letters they have more or less said it: it was included! But you still have to pay for ACCESS. Not for some "extensive testing, installning, finetuning" and so on...
SUPERCHARGING HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE WAS INCLUDED IN MY PURCHASE AGREEMENT. DO I NEED TO ADD THIS OPTION?
You only need to add this option if you would like to have access to the Supercharger network. The current price to install, configure and test the hardware and software required to enable Supercharging is $2,000. Because we have included this hardware in your car at no additional cost, you only need to pay $1,000 to configure, enable and test the Supercharger components. This does not mean you have to enable this option. We planned the hardware into your car to give you a choice when pricing became available. Just because we've planned to install hardware in your car does not mean you have to order the option. Please use the buttons above to indicate whether you would like this option added to your Model S or would prefer to decline it.
Talk about changing the rules as you go! In the bold letters they have more or less said it: it was included! But you still have to pay for ACCESS. Not for some "extensive testing, installning, finetuning" and so on...
teslasguy
MSP P#1117
Again, this is missing the point of people's complaint I think. I don't think the charging of a fee is the issue. The issue is that 60kw res. holders were told that the supercharging hardware was "included", just as those of us getting 85kw version. Now they're being told that if they don't agree to an extra $1k fee in the next 10 days they will NEVER be able to use the superchargers. Again, I'm getting a P85, but this behavior by Tesla sounds very disingenious to put it mildly. And this is after some that had reservations for 40kw cars upgraded to 60kw in order to get the ability to use the superchargers. I can easily see how they must feel more than a little arm twisting going on. Seems to me this could be easily remedied by simply stating that for the early reservations they can get unlimited free supercharging access by agreeing to an extra $1k fee no later than 60 days within shipment of their car, or else pay $2k to get the "activation" later on if they want it.
I still find it amazing that TM decided to charge the early adopters the 1K since it will only raise about 1 to 3M (assuming there are 1K to 3K 60kWh MVPA signed reservation holders who received the email) cash and that money/decision could potentially be debated by professionals at a later date. Why go through that process for such a small pittance? Why not celebrate those that already signed MVPA as opposed to putting them through what feels like to me an emotional rollercoaster. I'm already going through that as a stock holder...
At the end of the day I'm still getting SC and 60kWh since I live on the west coast and will realize the benefit of the chargers already in place and it appears that my Model S will reap the benefits of SCing even if another owner, battery or drivetrain is installed by TM at some later date. Thanks to GB for clarifying that detail! I'm assuming that the re-tuning cost of SCing will be built into the cost of the replacement battery.
I would call out that there is a risk to those outside of the west coast if the other SC stations are delayed, changed or not deployed for whatever reason. If I was not on the west coast I would find this risk something to cause pause and hope that TM would somehow make amends if such delays occurred.
At the end of the day I'm still getting SC and 60kWh since I live on the west coast and will realize the benefit of the chargers already in place and it appears that my Model S will reap the benefits of SCing even if another owner, battery or drivetrain is installed by TM at some later date. Thanks to GB for clarifying that detail! I'm assuming that the re-tuning cost of SCing will be built into the cost of the replacement battery.
I would call out that there is a risk to those outside of the west coast if the other SC stations are delayed, changed or not deployed for whatever reason. If I was not on the west coast I would find this risk something to cause pause and hope that TM would somehow make amends if such delays occurred.
I don't know, but Tesla sure seems to be making a habit out of withholding important information/pricing until the very end (if not beyond the time people had already made decisions). They need to stop shooting themselves in the foot and be a bit more forthright and transparent. They did this to early Roadster owners, and they did this to the early Model S reservation holders (never did they mention that the smaller battery packs would have reduced 0-60 times, despite the fact that they must have clearly known this to be the case long before they announced pricing. They always advertised a 5.6s 0-60 time regardless of pack size). They did this most recently with the service plan costs, and now with the Supercharger costs. Tesla has to do a better job of announcing things in a more immediate and direct fashion. The PR hit they're taking from this continued habit of keeping its customers in the dark cannot be good.
I have witnessed a definitive change in mood on this forum over the past 2 months, and we are the most ardent supporters and evangelists of this company. Even those that I considered the biggest Telsa apologists have started to turn on the company and have voiced their skepticism and displeasure with some of their actions. Tesla, wake up and learn from your mistakes.
I have witnessed a definitive change in mood on this forum over the past 2 months, and we are the most ardent supporters and evangelists of this company. Even those that I considered the biggest Telsa apologists have started to turn on the company and have voiced their skepticism and displeasure with some of their actions. Tesla, wake up and learn from your mistakes.
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It is always interesting to see the wildly different view points that spill out when a major announcment is made by Tesla. Clearly no one individual is right or wrong in their interrpretation of how a situation could have been handled so any attempts to silence groups with a viewpoint different from yours goes no where.
I've always been aiming for the 60kWh pack so this SC pricing impacts me but my general assumption regardless of if there was trickery with wording about hw vs sw being included was that I would be paying some sort of fee in the range of $700 to $1500 range. For the maintenance fee I assumed a price of up to $600/yr since that's what the roadster owners pay. Internet connectivity I'm assuming $30 to $80/mo based on cell phone plans. When I read posts some people make extremly low assumptions as far as what they need to pay for then get disappointed when their assumption is proven wrong. Providing a service for free in most instances is counter-intuitive for a company trying to make a profit, except if that free serveice results in indirectly creating extra revenue. Tesla could have easily just charged 60 and 85kWh packs but didn't. I'm grateful for that.
I've budgeted a certain amount of money to buy this car and there will be several options I want but in the grand scheme of things I can afford what I can afford. If some cool option comes on the table another might go on the chopping block to fit withing my budget. As many have stated you have the option to say no to an option if you don't feel the price is right.
I've always been aiming for the 60kWh pack so this SC pricing impacts me but my general assumption regardless of if there was trickery with wording about hw vs sw being included was that I would be paying some sort of fee in the range of $700 to $1500 range. For the maintenance fee I assumed a price of up to $600/yr since that's what the roadster owners pay. Internet connectivity I'm assuming $30 to $80/mo based on cell phone plans. When I read posts some people make extremly low assumptions as far as what they need to pay for then get disappointed when their assumption is proven wrong. Providing a service for free in most instances is counter-intuitive for a company trying to make a profit, except if that free serveice results in indirectly creating extra revenue. Tesla could have easily just charged 60 and 85kWh packs but didn't. I'm grateful for that.
I've budgeted a certain amount of money to buy this car and there will be several options I want but in the grand scheme of things I can afford what I can afford. If some cool option comes on the table another might go on the chopping block to fit withing my budget. As many have stated you have the option to say no to an option if you don't feel the price is right.
Frankly, I think Tesla screwed the pooch here strictly in messaging. If they had just left it as "TBD" and said (as they did) that that once the details were announced, those of us who had selected 60kWh would have the option to either buy Supercharger access for our cars or change our configuration to the 85kWh if we didn't like the price, then I doubt very much that we'd have the complaining we're seeing now.
Let's not forget that while Supercharger capability has been promised as included for the 85kWh for a long time, there was never an expectation that it would be free forever. That's amazing. It's awesome. It's doubly wonderful that I could gain the same lifetime access for the 60kWh car for a fraction of the price difference of jumping to the 85kWh.
As for me, I'm going to run the numbers this weekend and decide whether to stick with 60kWh or go to 85 with the effective $1000 discount.
Let's not forget that while Supercharger capability has been promised as included for the 85kWh for a long time, there was never an expectation that it would be free forever. That's amazing. It's awesome. It's doubly wonderful that I could gain the same lifetime access for the 60kWh car for a fraction of the price difference of jumping to the 85kWh.
As for me, I'm going to run the numbers this weekend and decide whether to stick with 60kWh or go to 85 with the effective $1000 discount.
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