Surprised there's no CCS support. Thoughts?

[emir-t]

I have a Bolt, I can attest to both the slow charge rate and the scarcity of charging stations.
BTW, you can't get 50kW out of most of the charging stations, 40kW is a more common starting charge rate and it tapers off to much less than that after you get over about 50%.

In addition, most of the EVgo stations limit you to 30 minutes per charge and the fees are terrible.

Anyone who wants a CCS to charge their Tesla has a screw loose. I'd give a big pile of money to be able to use Tesla's Superchargers with my Bolt. But I can't, so I'm buying a Model 3 to use for any trips > 200 miles R/T.

See both parties are looking at things from their perspective. Your part of the world is Tesla-land and you can get a Model 3 in 2017. You have an, apparently bad, DCFC operator called Evgo and ccs plug is completely different from Tesla's proprietary plug.

Whereas in Europe we will wait until late 2018, in fact for me early 2019 because I'm Turkish, for the Model 3. Tesla already uses an altered version of the Menekkes plug working above specs to be used for Supercharging. So all they need to is add 2 DC pins to the bottom of it to support both Supercharging and CCS. No one here is arguing CCS instead of the supercharger, what are we lunatics?

rEVolution isn't at the same level everywhere around the world. We in Turkey still rely on 16,5 to 22kW AC charging for roadtrips. So 50kW CCS is mad speed. Also for western Europe there's quite a bit CCS coverage. I think Tesla might make some slight localisation differences like that with the 3. Giant charge port can be explained like this. I understand how much of a dead investment like CCS is viewed from the states. But here with Ioniq, i3, soon to come iPace, eGolf and others CCS is a real alternative. Especially with the newer 100kW versions. (remember Model 3 supercharges at an average speed of 60kw with the lower pack)

I'm sure people from the 220V/400V three phase land will agree.

 

[bkp_duke]

Im not sure as to the complexity. But could Tesla design a dummy adapter like the Tesla to j1772 adapter for CCS. Assuming they have the car's onboard computer deal with communications protocols? In other words design the car to use a adapter from the start. I know that Tesla already has the pins for DC-DC and can make use of the communication pins of the J1772 plug.

No, there is a handshake involved and other communication.

 

[Jason S]

I have a Bolt, I can attest to both the slow charge rate and the scarcity of charging stations.
BTW, you can't get 50kW out of most of the charging stations, 40kW is a more common starting charge rate and it tapers off to much less than that after you get over about 50%.

In addition, most of the EVgo stations limit you to 30 minutes per charge and the fees are terrible.

Anyone who wants a CCS to charge their Tesla has a screw loose. I'd give a big pile of money to be able to use Tesla's Superchargers with my Bolt. But I can't, so I'm buying a Model 3 to use for any trips > 200 miles R/T.

^^ I hope that we won't be in a Betamax vs VHS war in 5 years but it seems this is the path we're on. If Chevy & Tesla could agree on sharing the Tesla chargers (most likely Chevy paying for more chargers, maybe in the NE US?) then we'd have a model were other manufacturers could participate.
Prolly different people involved than a CCS adapter, but more useful overall.

 

[Cosmacelf]

There are very very few CCS only stations in the US, they are almost all paired with a Chademo plug, so Tesla's Chademo adapter works just fine right now. European deliveries won't happen for at least a year, more than enough time for Tesla to figure out a CCS charging option or built in solution.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

I expect that EU markets will get Tesla modified Mennekes Type 2 + CCS as one port, because they were already forced to use the EU connector for non-DCFC and they adapted it to their use, they won't need a whole second port, but instead just two big pins below their existing port, and a few extra contactors and such to switch which pins are connected to HVDC. It will cost more obviously, but not nearly as much as having both a Tesla Proprietary (NA / etc) connector and a SAE CCS (bigger and more unwieldly than the EU CCS).

SAE CCS is a hulking, ugly, design by committee interface that is put to shame by the EU version of CCS. Sure, Tesla Proprietary and Tesla modified Mennekes Type-2 (normally the non-DCFC part of EU CCS) is "better" (smaller, does essentially all the same things), but the EU CCS isn't horrible and in fact can service all three (Tesla, EU non-DCFC, EU DCFC via CCS) variants in one compact-ish area. That's not an option in the US, so it's probably not going to get a SAE CCS unless required by law, and if so they'll probably end up sticking it on the other tail light (if it even fits) or possibly somewhere in the frunk/trunk?

 

[techmaven]

Reality in the U.S. is that Tesla will command over 50% of the EV market in the coming years. Of the long range BEVs that truly can use a DCFC national network, Tesla has about 94% of the shipped plugs.

There is no reason for Tesla to adopt CCS at all. They can just let it die. When the L3 DCFC dual standard EVSE's ship, Tesla can revise the CHAdeMO adapter if the SAE is being obstinate about a plug adapter. After all, CHAdeMO is expected to ship the same power levels. If Nissan continues with shipping CHAdeMO, then CCS v2 will have very little marketshare in 2018, barely any more in 2019, and maybe sometime in the early 2020's, they will register some meaningful marketshare. You can plot every BEV coming out from now until 2021 and the expected volumes and it just isn't very much. By the time CCS might be relevant, it will be subject to deprecation by a plug standard that better support robotic, non-human plugging.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I am not surprised there was no CCS and I do not think that tells us anything, really, of Tesla's CCS plans or lack there of.

As noted already in the pre-unveil stage, Tesla has made the Model 3 charge port bigger, so certainly they could be preparing for CCS compatibility - and they've joined the CCS organization. The port area certainly seems large enough to accommodate CCS, possibly even both CCS and Tesla's proprietary connector - and Model S/X could be upgraded to same through new rear light fixtures...

But that's about all we know. Sometimes Tesla changes their mind and/or plans get delayed, as happened with the "AP 1.5" of dual front cameras ja dual rear radars between the Model X launch and Model S facelift, that never actually shipped beyond covered electronics and wiring diagrams. We saw them, we correctly identified them, but then Tesla cancelled them. So CCS plans may be in existence or they may have been in existence in the past, but it is hard to tell at this point.

Also, one of the big problems with a thread like this is the regionality of charging and the internationality of a forum like this. CCS obviously matters quite a bit less or more depending on where you are. From a U.S. perspective it might seem to make very little sense, whereas in Europe every Tesla already has the top part of the European CCS connector as their only connector (Superchargers included) and adding CCS support physically seems trivial and the benefits great...

But more importantly coverage of various charger technologies depends heavily on the region. Even for some in the U.S. CCS support might make sense, whereas in California asking for it seems ludicrous.

So, understandably a difficult topic to ponder together...

 

[jerry33]

My, perhaps flawed, understanding is:

1. Tesla has been a member of CCS for a very long time.
2. There are few CCS locations in the U.S.--even fewer if you take away the inconvenient and often unavailable ones at car dealers.
3. The Tesla electronics are very similar to CCS.
4. When the number of stations increase to where it makes sense, Tesla will build an adapter. Think about how long it took to get the CHAdeMO adapter (admittedly, that was much harder to do than a CCS adapter would be).
5. My guess is that CCS in Europe is different than CCS in North America--that's generally how standards work.

 

[cwerdna]

5. My guess is that CCS in Europe is different than CCS in North America--that's generally how standards work.

The connector is different between the North American flavor of CCS (aka SAE Combo aka Combo1) vs. the Combo2 flavor in Europe.

Pics at EV DC Fast Charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, SAE Combo, Tesla Supercharger, etc. Look under "DC Fast charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, Supercharger, China".

In comparison, CHAdeMO is a world standard.

 

[SageBrush]

Do you think Tesla thinks that the 100kw CCS network will develop very rapidly with collaborative effort and capital and doesn't want Model 3s using it to avoid a possible devaluation of the network in terms of users?

No

 

[timk225]

Let's turn this problem around and work at it from the other end.

Instead of Tesla adding a CCS to their cars, how about getting these companies with the Chademo / CCS chargers (Evgo, etc) to add J1772 and Tesla plugs to their chargers? Then they could charge any car, and their operators would make more money from the increased usage. Whatever computer system they have in the charger assembly to handle Chademo and CCS could be updated to support J1772 and Tesla as well.

How about that idea?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Some notes, no particular argument, just info:

2. There are few CCS locations in the U.S.

Volkswagen's dieselgate settlement includes building more, though. Also, overall, CCS is the charging system of choice for non-Tesla and non-Japanese manufacturers going forward.

4. When the number of stations increase to where it makes sense, Tesla will build an adapter.

Apparently adapters are not allowed by the CCS standard.

5. My guess is that CCS in Europe is different than CCS in North America--that's generally how standards work.

The plug is different in Europe, yes. Also, one notable thing is that European Teslas already use the top two thirds of the euro-CCS plug as their only charging plug, adding the DC pins to make it CCS would thus physically be rather trivial (though would require extending the charging port to the taller portion of the rear light fixture to fit).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Instead of Tesla adding a CCS to their cars, how about getting these companies with the Chademo / CCS chargers (Evgo, etc) to add J1772 and Tesla plugs to their chargers?

Some third parties have already shown/demoed self-made mock-ups of that. I'm not sure how Tesla feels about the topic?

 

[TexasEV]

Some third parties have already shown/demoed self-made mock-ups of that. I'm not sure how Tesla feels about the topic?

Let's turn this problem around and work at it from the other end.

Instead of Tesla adding a CCS to their cars, how about getting these companies with the Chademo / CCS chargers (Evgo, etc) to add J1772 and Tesla plugs to their chargers? Then they could charge any car, and their operators would make more money from the increased usage. Whatever computer system they have in the charger assembly to handle Chademo and CCS could be updated to support J1772 and Tesla as well.

How about that idea?

You can't just put a J1772 plug on a CHAdeMO or CCS charging station ( I recall in an earlier post you said you're not an electrical engineer-- that is obvious) but every CHAdeMO station I've seen has a J1772 station next to it. ChargePoint has displayed a prototype DC charging station with CHAdeMO, CCS, and space for a third cable which everyone assumed would be a Tesla Connector. Don't know if they're selling it yet.

 

[Candleflame]

There is a Tesla Supercharger about 2 miles from my house, I'll be charging at home and not at the Supercharger.

You seem to not understand the scarcity of CCS chargers. The station a mile from your house likely has ONE charging port and it is likely shared with a Chademo port. Anyone charging at it will need to be there a minimum of 30 minutes and to get an 80% charge will take a full hour+. In other words, it won't be available when you want it.

So get a charging station at home and move on. If you plan on using a CCS station as your primary means to charge you will quickly learn why it's such a bad idea.

there is nothing scarce about css

CCS/Combo Charge Map - Europe

 

[BioSehnsucht]

there is nothing scarce about css

CCS/Combo Charge Map - Europe

CCS is scarce in North America, and will be so for some time.

CCS is on it's way to being very common in EU, since it is the mandated interface. If you go back and look at the poster you replied, they have their location set as California. I don't know if Australia would be using SAE (US) CCS (Combo1) or EU CCS (Combo2), but SAE CCS is still practically non-existant outside a few "Look at us we built a charger!" installations, while EU CCS is a serious and available thing. Also making an EU Tesla use Combo2 is relatively simple compared to Combo1, physically they're already almost the same for Combo2 (as Tesla uses modified Mennekes Type 2 connector in EU) but Combo1 is totally incompatible (physically) with the Tesla connector in North America.

I think most of the arguments over whether CCS is good/bad or available/scarce stems from people thinking about it from their local perspective. CCS is almost non-existant in North America and will be slow to grow, while CCS is the standard (other than Tesla's Superchargers, though those are Tesla-only) in Europe. Apples and Oranges.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You can't just put a J1772 plug on a CHAdeMO or CCS charging station ( I recall in an earlier post you said you're not an electrical engineer-- that is obvious) but every CHAdeMO station I've seen has a J1772 station next to it. ChargePoint has displayed a prototype DC charging station with CHAdeMO, CCS, and space for a third cable which everyone assumed would be a Tesla Connector. Don't know if they're selling it yet.

While I understand what you are saying, and technically you can not put an AC connector into a DC charger, at least in Europe it is very common to have EV chargers with AC and DC cables in the same enclosure, so our equivalents of J1772 (the Mennekes AC), CCS and CHAdeMO in the "same" charger.

It would seem at least technically plausible to have something similar with a Tesla connector as fourth, in markets where Tesla has a proprietary connector.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Also making an EU Tesla use Combo2 is relatively simple compared to Combo1, physically they're already almost the same for Combo2 (as Tesla uses modified Mennekes Type 2 connector in EU) but Combo1 is totally incompatible (physically) with the Tesla connector in North America.

Good post, thank you. And yes, it doesn't help in the U.S. that the Combo1 CCS is truly a frankenstinian monster that makes the EU version of the frankenplug (Combo2 CCS) look like a tender butterfly in comparison.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Good post, thank you. And yes, it doesn't help in the U.S. that the Combo1 CCS is truly a frankenstinian monster that makes the EU version of the frankenplug (Combo2 CCS) look like a tender butterfly in comparison.

Yes, Combo2 is really quite sensible and svelte compared to Combo1. Combo1 really does set a bar for unnecessarily bad design. For something that was probably also built by committee, Combo2 is actually pretty good looking and straightforward ...

 

[cwerdna]

but every CHAdeMO station I've seen has a J1772 station next to it.

Not in my experience. Of the 3 CHAdeMO stations I used to use when I still had a Leaf w/CHAdeMO inlet + a few others I'd seen, 0 had a J1772 L1 or L2 station next to it.

- 1 at a Walgreens that was free had a pretty expensive Chargepoint L2 nearby
- another at a Walgreen that was also free had no L2 nearby at all. It wasn't anywhere in the parking lot
- at another, which was at a Nissan dealer, the closest L2 J1772 were probably 50 feet away near the corner of a building. There were 2 more but you had to go thru or around the building.

Near home, EVgo recently installed 2 dual plug DC FCs (Combo1 + CHAdeMO) in a Walmart parking lot. There are no J1772 L1 or L2s anywhere in that parking lot or nearby. The closest L2s are unrelated and free (part of the Santa Clara Valley Water District) about 0.6 miles down the road which predate the above installation by MANY years, at least 3.5 years.