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Surprised there's no CCS support. Thoughts?
- Thread starter emir-t
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- Model 3 Supercharging
It's pretty trivial for Tesla. Tesla Motors CTO talks future batteries and charging protocols - SAE International
JB Straubel said:
If Tesla decides not to support CCS, it won't be because it is too difficult or expensive for them to develop.
CCS uses HomePlug GreenPHY for communications. It's actually forwards compatible with HomePlug AV (but locked to 10mbit/s) and uses IPv6 addressing as part of the standard.
At least for us in europe CCS is an essential. I'll be cancelling my Model 3 reservation if I can't get it, and solely for that reason. Apart from one supercharger 20km from me, the next nearest is 434 km away.
Inside that radius there is well over a hundred CCS stations (most are 63kW (though labelled 50kW)) and there are 350kW stations going in this summer.
At least for us in europe CCS is an essential. I'll be cancelling my Model 3 reservation if I can't get it, and solely for that reason. Apart from one supercharger 20km from me, the next nearest is 434 km away.
Inside that radius there is well over a hundred CCS stations (most are 63kW (though labelled 50kW)) and there are 350kW stations going in this summer.
Zaphod
Galaxy President (former)
Believe this will be added at some point. Really see no other reason why they made the tail light assembly that houses the charge port so much larger that the S/X one.
diamond.g
Active Member
You are not supposed to have hundreds of Supercharger within that radius. That’s not how this works. You are looking at a very expensive DC destination charging network, not a high powered DC long distance charging network. They are also labeled 50 kW for a reason... 500 volts x 125 amps = 62.5 kW, but since no EV battery pack takes 500 volts, the realistic output is more like 40-50kW. Telsa Superchargers could be labeled as 185 kW if they used the unobtainable 500 volt level. Charging at 40 kW overnight... well, do you really care if your car charges in 1.1 or 2 hours versus 6 or 8 hours? Are you going to unplug in the middle of the night? If we have 1000x the number of EVs, can we afford to put in plugs for 200-2,000 € each or 8,000 to 50,000 € each?
Give that the 350 kW standard isn’t actually set, more accurately some prototype and possibly future capacity EVSE’s are going to possibly be installed.
(emphasis mine)
Actually, Tesla doesn't NEED that at all. They are going to sell every car they can make in the foreseeable future. What's more they already have the largest and fastest charging network in the US... and there plans to triple the number of stations globally by end of 2018 includes significant US expansion as well.
So while you might want CCS in America, Tesla doesn't need to include it. And what's more, I suspect most folks in the US don't even want it.
cdub
OG 2011 Leaf / 2023 Model Y LR
I haven't had to rely on public charging for a while in my 2011 Leaf but have recently and I must say the experience is now pretty horrible.
The chargers used to be free but now they're not. The Americana in Glendale appears to have removed all the L2 chargers except two evgo ones that evgo says aren't even theirs anymore. Regardless I wasn't able to get them to work.
Why charging stations don't have credit card stations for easy charging is beyond me. The only positive experience I had was with charge point and their app as it was relatively easy to charge at their station at Universal city walk.
But I don't want different membership cards. All the ones I have from years ago don't seem to work anymore.
I'm looking forward to easily charging at Tesla stations in the future.
Public charging for non Tesla low mileage EVs is pretty much a horrible experience now. Thankfully I don't need to use it that much depsite my Leaf only getting 60 or so miles per charge.
The chargers used to be free but now they're not. The Americana in Glendale appears to have removed all the L2 chargers except two evgo ones that evgo says aren't even theirs anymore. Regardless I wasn't able to get them to work.
Why charging stations don't have credit card stations for easy charging is beyond me. The only positive experience I had was with charge point and their app as it was relatively easy to charge at their station at Universal city walk.
But I don't want different membership cards. All the ones I have from years ago don't seem to work anymore.
I'm looking forward to easily charging at Tesla stations in the future.
Public charging for non Tesla low mileage EVs is pretty much a horrible experience now. Thankfully I don't need to use it that much depsite my Leaf only getting 60 or so miles per charge.
I would take public charger vs. no charger any day of the week.
Latter is the current story with Tesla and CCS charging.
To each their own I guess...
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tesla added CCS charging to European cars, the same way they decided to adopt the Mennekes port in the first place. When the Model S came out the general assumption was that the European cars would have the same proprietary port as the US (which was true for the Roadster).
Nope, and it won't be available in my market until almost a year after my model 3 reservation expected delivery. I'd also be be going for a maxed out model 3.
I'm well aware of the purpose of DC rapid charging. The model 3 will be my fourth rapid charging equipped EV. I've regularly done trips of 3000-4000km in an i3 with a 22kWh pack (my i3 has ~140,000km on the odometer). Given my geographical location, none of the existing or planned superchargers will useful for me travelling any major long distance route I regularly use. But CCS DC Rapids are. The future of rapid charging in europe is a large common CCS network, at least in europe it's very clear Tesla superchargers are already the betamax of DC rapid charging, the future utility of the car would be threatened by not having CCS since it's the presumptive standard.
The actual observed output of efacec QC45 rapid chargers when I've charged a Hyundai Ioniq or a Kia Soul EVs is 62.5kW with 360V/175A. The majority of the CCS rapids near me are QC45s. The QC45 is sold as a 50 or 45kW rapid but it can do more.
The several drafts have been released, some manufacturers and charging networks are going ahead and promising rapids upgradable to CCS @ 350kW.
The situation in Ireland is very different. By 2015 every town/hamlet over a population of 1000 people has had a minimum of two 22kW three phase streetside charging ports (the AC chargepoint network has almost 1500 locations) and no location anywhere in the country (literally... including the tops of mountains) is more than 25km from a DC rapid charger (107). It's one network and at least for the moment is still free. We've had a stall of funding since 2015 due to a regulatory issue due to be resolved this month, but still it's a very different situation to the US. In contrast there is one 8-bay supercharger in the whole country and only two further planned, from my location on routes that would require rapid charging to complete the superchargers would be either reached at too high an SoC, an uncomfortably low SoC or would be up to 50km round-trip off a direct route.
Not really. Even today in Europe and in substantial parts of the coastal areas of North America there are CCS chargers that can sometimes be more convenient than Superchargers and CCS DC infrastructure is likely to quickly expand in the next several years. At least in NA, this will be paired with CHAdeMO in the next few years so Tesla has a viable short-term path to accessing these expanding locations in addition to the rapidly expanding Tesla infrastructure. There is going to be a challenge to install charging quick enough to meet the demand of new cars coming out so the more access to charging options the better.
Today's CCS network will be getting a big makeover during the next several years by VW and others to support 150 kW and 350 kW in some locations.
This is true. It makes no sense for TM3 to get CCS this year due to the timing.
CHAdeMO's spec update for 150 kW (350A at 500 V) has been approved with a further update to 1000V still undergoing development. The CCS final spec approval details are a bit unclear to me although my understanding is that everything is wired down and finished at the working group level and it's all formalities now. Product designs for 150 kW (350) CHAdeMO and CCS are finished and undergoing their last stages of interoperability and compliance testing. All vendors have been saying for some time that products are expected to ship in 2017.
This may be true. Or not. In any case, Tesla can clearly wait awhile longer before committing themselves to any change of direction although it makes sense for them to leave physical room for alternate charging inlets on the Model 3 and newer products to ease any transitions in the next several years for Europe or elsewhere.
At present CharIN prohibits external adapters for DC Fast. Mennekes/J1772 Level 2 adapters obviously exist but do not solve the problem. Since Tesla is a full member of CharIN we may safely expect there will be a solution devised, probably some form of adapter. Given the CharIN authorization protocols based on PLC Tesla already has those capabilities in all current production vehicles, but the software and hardware compatibility issues are not trivial. Technically these are not overly difficult, but the rules and regulations are another matter.
Design Guide: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
I fully expect a solution, but probably not until sometime around mid-2019.
FWIW, the public utility and equipment manufacturer members of CharIN are very concerned about ad-hoc chargers operating in high-voltage, high-amperage DC environments. Most sensible people probably share the concerns. The solution, when it comes, will certainly be at least as cumbersome as is the present CHAdeMO adapter. I hope they do it as soon as possible. We definitely need it in many markets around the world.
No RHD AmperaE's and GM has effectively left Europe. They had to pay Peugeot to take Opel off their hands. Nobody wants GM cars that are marked up 50%. Sort of like if base Golfs in the US were $30k before options.
GM will probably not offer Bolts in Europe. They theoretically offer Camaros and Corvettes, but it's really dumb. A 4-cyl Camaro is over $47,000 USD in Germany. It's $26k in the USA.
So a Chevrolet Bolt would sell for $68,000 before options. Pointless.
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If it were in Tesla Motor's best interests to support CCS, they could sell a CCS adapter for $1000 and turn a ~$800 profit.
There may be a time when it is in Tesla's best interests to support CCS, but that is not now apparently. CHAdeMO and J1772 were necessary evils at one time, so they are available. If there were not necessary, Tesla would not support them.
There may be a time when it is in Tesla's best interests to support CCS, but that is not now apparently. CHAdeMO and J1772 were necessary evils at one time, so they are available. If there were not necessary, Tesla would not support them.
Those aren’t 62.5’s, they are 100 kW (uncommon in the U.S.) and the Ioniq and the Soul can draw up to around 68-70 kW from them.
For your region, CHAdeMO is likely the crutch for Tesla vehicles in the short term. It will be somewhat a race at the L3 DCFC Level... note that as of now, there are zero L3 DCFC capable vehicles shipping other than Tesla. We don’t know yet if the I-Pace will have L3, and presumably the Audi Q6 e-tron will have it. But shipping volumes of both of those is expected to be low. Maybe less than 25,000 total between the two at the end of 2019, worldwide. What is going to be interesting is Nissan with the new Leaf in Europe. If they insist on CHAdeMO there, then all the L3 EVSE’s will likely be dual standard and Tesla can just revise the CHAdeMO adapter. That leaves vehicles like the upcoming Ioniq revision to possibly being actual L3 CCS usage, but Hyundai just boosted the current revision from about 14,000 a year build plan to 22,000 a year globally. As they increase the battery usage per car, they run into battery sourcing problems. So maybe in Europe, next year, there might be less than 5,000 CCSv2 vehicles that can L3 DCFC. Maybe rising to 35,000 in 2019. That might be 5% of the installed base by then? That affects the build out.
CCS does not allow adapters, so Tesla may not have that choice at least yet. Lack of an adapter thus probably tells us little...
That's not a legal prohibition. Tesla could easily spoof a direct connection through software in an adapter. There's no CCS Police out there to prevent Tesla from doing this if they deemed it necessary.
CCS is a specification. That's like saying you can't use an 7/16" wrench on an 11 mm clamp. Or "DO NOT USE" extension cords for EVSE's even when it's safe, like 8 amps on a 12 ga cord. Most CCS is 25 or 50 kW today. A hotel we stayed at ONLY had 25kW CCS. No J1772, CHAdeMO, Tesla HPWC, 120v outlet, nadda. But it was silly anyhow since a Lambo was ICE'g it. How fortunate for him there wasn't an i3 owner in bad mood that day and a pocket knife.
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