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Tesla Supercharger network

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That's great ... 'the forum'. No need to burst any bubbles here .... but we 'the forum' are so far from any hint of the norm that it's hard to estimate. For example - the folk on the Prius boards recently passed 100,000 members (after 10+ production years) . Actual Prius owners though? Countless millions. It'd be dishonest (or at least arrogant) to presume that 1% or less on the boards are a fair sampling of the whole..

About 1500 people are used to determine what TV shows to ditch and which to continue. And I'd suggest that the Tesla forum members are closer to the average Tesla purchaser than the Prius forum members are to the average Prius purchaser. The reason is that a great many Tesla purchasers are Tesla purchasers because of forum members, who are often their friends and neighbours. That implies they have commonalities. Prius purchasers mostly purchase (now) because of advertising.
 
Tesla's Superchargers (and the Coming Soon map) serve several needs, and it's the conflicts between those needs that gives rise to the heated discussion. But let's not forget a core fact: Superchargers exist as a marketing tool to sell more cars.

On one hand, Superchargers are a sales tool. I've been asked countless times by prospective buyers, "but what about driving long distances?" and "free and fast" is a great answer. For this purpose, the Coming Soon map is essential, as it allows potential buyers to check the box that they will—maybe not today, but soon—be able to drive to visit Grandma or climb their favorite mountain. A critical gap in the map, and the sale might well be lost.

On the other hand, Superchargers have to deliver on that promise, which means installing additional stalls or new stations in areas (like California) where the existing infrastructure isn't enough to meet demand. Failure to keep up can result in negative press that impairs the positive sales function of Superchargers.

I strongly suspect that Tesla is pondering ways to address the infrastructure overcrowding issue by a cheaper solution than building, namely creating some disincentive for locals to charge locally. It's telling that Tesla has shifted description of the Model S and X to include free long-distance charging. My guess—and hope—is that Tesla will implement a cost to charge under certain circumstances, e.g. Supercharging within 20 miles of your residence. If Supercharging ceases to be free for locals, the anecdotal evidence in this thread suggests that much of the crowding at some sites will disappear. Consequently, Tesla could shift its resources to building out the Supercharger network elsewhere in the world, achieving what Superchargers were meant to do: support sales of new cars.
 
+1. Even a nominal charge would probably be enough to discourage overuse of local superchargers, and wouldn't impact edge cases (like people returning from a trip and topping off to get home) too much.
 
+1. Even a nominal charge would probably be enough to discourage overuse of local superchargers, and wouldn't impact edge cases (like people returning from a trip and topping off to get home) too much.
We've discussed this issue extensively at MNL over the past year or two, and the general conclusion (assuming free SCs are to continue) was either a charge for SCs within a certain radius of your home address, or else some limited number of free SCs per year within that radius. Tesla has shown that they have the info to bill people, if necessary.

There also needs to be an exception to the above, for people who can't charge at home or work, but implementing that would likely incur considerable additional costs on Tesla; they'd have to use people to verify the need.

I've always thought that free SCs were untenable in the long run, for exactly these reasons. It also means that SCs prefer to be located in low-cost, out-of-the-way places rather than those where lots of people are likely to be, i.e. major cities with lots of freeway/highway intersections, which would reduce the number of SC sites needed - there are only somewhere between 160-180 junctions (I counted them once, but the exact total is a bit fuzzy as some are offset) between two or more primary interstates, so allowing for spacing between them (especially out west) you could cover the entire ~ 45,000 miles of the primary interstates with say 250 SCs. Eliminating the 'free' SCs avoids the need to put SCs on each leg out of the junction instead of one at it, so even though the real estate costs are undoubtedly higher, you need fewer sites.
 
There also needs to be an exception to the above, for people who can't charge at home or work, but implementing that would likely incur considerable additional costs on Tesla; they'd have to use people to verify the need.
I disagree. Even people who don't have home or work charging need to be billed something.

Something simple like 20 Supercharger sessions / year are free and everything above that is billed at nominal rates would eliminate the issue and be equitable across the board. Or you might do something like allow 1000 kWh / year of SuperCharging is included (good for 3,000 miles or so of driving, plenty for road trips except for the most extreme cross-country and back trips). Anything above is billed at local market rates.

It would not matter what SC you used - local or remote - it'd all be the same. This type of scheme would just about eliminate locals charging just to save a buck or two while still enabling "free" road trips.
 
I disagree. Even people who don't have home or work charging need to be billed something.

Something simple like 20 Supercharger sessions / year are free and everything above that is billed at nominal rates would eliminate the issue and be equitable across the board. Or you might do something like allow 1000 kWh / year of SuperCharging is included (good for 3,000 miles or so of driving, plenty for road trips except for the most extreme cross-country and back trips). Anything above is billed at local market rates.

It would not matter what SC you used - local or remote - it'd all be the same. This type of scheme would just about eliminate locals charging just to save a buck or two while still enabling "free" road trips.
I've never advocated for free charging at any time, and would prefer to see a fee-based system for all the reasons I stated. Since Tesla can tell which cars are being charged, the easiest is just to have every one establish an account with a balance, and Tesla debits their accounts. I assume all SCs have phone/wireless access, so anyone who runs out can call them up and add more. Hopefully Tesla would be a lot more efficient at running this than SemaConnect or the other prepaid balance networks have been.
 
Once you implement a pay system, you have to have additional people to run it, collect bad debts, and generally tick of most of your customers. I'd rather they spend their money implementing/expanding SCs than on collections. Yes, there are a few jerks who abuse the system, but that doesn't get owners ticked off with Tesla. A pay system would do that.
 
Yes, there are a few jerks who abuse the system.
Unfortunately, it doesn't take a high percentage of jerks to abuse the system when you have 10s of thousands of owners and only 10s of SuperCharger stalls.

It will get worse when the mass market vehicles come to market and I doubt there is the profit margin on those vehicles to keep free SuperCharging available for life for all owners.

As someone else mentioned, Tragedy of the commons will inevitably win out unless you implement some sort of cost to charge - monetary or otherwise.
 
This entire discussion of paying for supercharging is ill-informed. Tesla knows everything: who is using what stall for how long from what state of charge; who is waiting for how long; how far they are from home; where they go when they're done. As problems with crowding occur (and they have and will), Tesla can easily deal with it through a variety of means, none of which involve money. So far they haven't done anything but send out some mostly misdirected letters, but a technical solution is straightforward to implement, so I'm sure they will do that when necessary.

Personally I prefer a system where Tesla simply makes the relevant supercharger not connect to a particular vehicle under some circumstances, after warnings to the driver(s) and invitations to contact Tesla if there's any misunderstanding. They can do this pretty easily, as well as endless variations on this theme.
 
Unfortunately, it doesn't take a high percentage of jerks to abuse the system when you have 10s of thousands of owners and only 10s of SuperCharger stalls.

It will get worse when the mass market vehicles come to market and I doubt there is the profit margin on those vehicles to keep free SuperCharging available for life for all owners.

As someone else mentioned, Tragedy of the commons will inevitably win out unless you implement some sort of cost to charge - monetary or otherwise.
If these proposed per use charges are in addition to a $2000 surcharge for use of superchargers (i.e. for the Model 3), count me way out. A Volt will do just fine.
 
Here is some data of Model S owners per state. It's taken for the 'Plug in America' survey.

TeslaPerStatePercent.JPG


Superchargers per state:
CA 11.8%
FL 5.4%
UT 4.2%
AZ 4.2%
IL 3.3%
TX 2.9%
all others: 68.2%

I think these numbers show very clear that California does not get special treatment. Tesla is obviously favoring completing the network over building for demand. While CA has 30 % of all Tesla traffic, there is only 11.8% of the Superchargers. I hope this will silence once and for all the wild speculation about 'favoritism' and nonsense that California had over-supply.
 
A real good way of solving the "local SC abuse" would have been for Tesla not to put so many chargers around SF, LA and NYC. If its made for "long distance travel" they should be 50-100 miles outside of the city to prevent the issues they have have started coming up with (Uber drivers and other taxi type services). Putting chargers in prime commuter pathways basically promoted local charging imo.
 
A real good way of solving the "local SC abuse" would have been for Tesla not to put so many chargers around SF, LA and NYC.

Placing them only 50-100 miles outside of cities would mean that Los Angeles County as well as Orange County would have absolutely zero Superchargers. It's pretty much one big massive city with 16 million people.

If its made for "long distance travel" they should ...
Tesla decided what Superchargers are for and then decided where to put them. It's kind of funny when people try to say Tesla doesn't want that. Well, they made all the decisions from start to end so I think it's safe to assume that's what they want and what it should be.
 
Placing them only 50-100 miles outside of cities would mean that Los Angeles County as well as Orange County would have absolutely zero Superchargers. It's pretty much one big massive city with 16 million people.


Tesla decided what Superchargers are for and then decided where to put them. It's kind of funny when people try to say Tesla doesn't want that. Well, they made all the decisions from start to end so I think it's safe to assume that's what they want and what it should be.
Neither Travis County (Austin), Harris County (Houston), Dallas County, or Bexar County (San Antonio) had any superchargers until one was just put at a service center in Houston. We in Texas were fine with that. The superchargers were placed in small towns on the highways between the major cities and it works well. We want more superchargers to allow travel farther beyond these metro areas, but I haven't heard of any calls for superchargers being needed in the above counties. I don't know why LA county should be different.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is some data of Model S owners per state. It's taken for the 'Plug in America' survey.

View attachment 97820

Superchargers per state:
CA 11.8%
FL 5.4%
UT 4.2%
AZ 4.2%
IL 3.3%
TX 2.9%
all others: 68.2%

I think these numbers show very clear that California does not get special treatment. Tesla is obviously favoring completing the network over building for demand. While CA has 30 % of all Tesla traffic, there is only 11.8% of the Superchargers. I hope this will silence once and for all the wild speculation about 'favoritism' and nonsense that California had over-supply.
It doesn't show anything. Most travel is local and most charging is done at home. It's where Teslas want to drive that should determine where superchargers go. The number of cars will determine the number of stalls per site, but not the number of sites.
 
Tesla decided what Superchargers are for and then decided where to put them. It's kind of funny when people try to say Tesla doesn't want that. Well, they made all the decisions from start to end so I think it's safe to assume that's what they want and what it should be.


"Placing them only 50-100 miles outside of cities would mean that Los Angeles County as well as Orange County would have absolutely zero Superchargers."

And that is the way it should be.
There should be ZERO Superchargers inside Los Angeles County, unless they are solely being used by transients on long distance travel.
The Locals who are abusing the privilege of Supercharging because they are so many, and so close inside the City, well, that is just wrong.
And I do appreciate you making the effort to see the big picture.

Respectfully, to quote from Tesla Motors Supercharger web page:
"...Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance travel..." (emphasis added)
Tesla Motors HAS already decided what the Superchargers are to be used for: long distance travel.



The current closest Supercharger to DFW is over 50 miles away.
When Denton's Supercharger is completed, that will be only 35 miles away from Dallas.
Wow, right in the middle of things...
NOT.

I CAN head either North an South and travel long distance.
But, and IF I head due East: Nothing but RV parks.
And If I head due West: Nothing but RV parks.
And If I head SouthEast: Nothing but RV parks until I run into I-10.
And If I head NorthEast: Nothing but RV parks
And If I head SouthWest: Nothing but RV Parks.
And If I head NorthWest: Nothing but RV parks until I run into I-40.

Or, Can I get to Little Rock in a Model S?
Can anybody get to Little Rock in a Model S?
Not unless you are prepared to spend some serious time charging in an RV park or something...
Oh, and then some more serious time charging in an RV Park, in order to head back home.

A quick exercise exactly that will depict what I am talking about:
Go to Supercharge.info, turn the range circles ON.
Set the range for 135 miles (the mileage number
Cottonwood uses for travel is 133 miles).
See which areas on the U.S. Map are blue, and which are white...
This is a very clear indication (proof) to me that California is over-supplied with Superchargers, because there is not a single lick of white in the entire state.
None.

Once there are very few and smaller white areas on the entire U.S. Map, that would be better.
If the next 10 Superchargers that got installed were in the Southeast and South Texas as the 2015 Map depicts, that would be an improvement, and at least show that those areas have not been forgotten or neglected.



I just visited Philly in my car:
Guess where the two closet Superchargers are?: both are about 35 miles outside Philly.
Not dead in the middle of the City.
Certainly not a group of three only 5 to 12 miles apart in the middle of the City.
They are completely OUTSIDE the city.
So is what is Philly: Chopped Liver?



By using fuzzy math you might construe that Superchargers are somehow simply placed for the state with the most registered Model S or for areas that have the most population.
Superchargers are supposed to be for connecting the ENTIRE U.S. and Southern Canada, not to just give California favors and more special treatment.
They are supposed to be for (mostly) regional travel and long-distance travel.
With
the current number of Live Supercharger sites (33), (not even counting the 5 sites under-construction and the 5 sites with permits), WHERE can anyone travel long-distance in California, and NOT have a Supercharger available for your use (using the 135 mile range circle)?
The additional 10 Superchargers will bring the new total to over 43 Superchargers for California.

The simple fact remains: California is over-supplied with Superchargers, while several areas/regions of the U.S. lower 48 still have ZIP/NADA/NYET/ZERO.

Once Tesla Motors makes the distribution and availability of Superchargers equitable, then this controversy dissolves.





 
Part of the problem is where Tesla is actually putting Superchargers. For example, look at this map:

altsuperchargers.png


The original image is from supercharge.info, so you can see the existing Superchargers. They are near cities. The pinkish dots is where Superchargers should be for just long distance travel, assuming one needs a Supercharger to boost between cities.

I suspect that if Tesla had $2 billion up front to make a Supercharger network, they would not have deployed them the way they have thus far. Instead, it makes more sense to have them about 20 miles outside of cities on all major routes. That way, there is a Supercharger near-ish to the city so that you can grab a charge on your way out if you need it or grab a charge on your way in as you are running low.
 
Part of the problem is where Tesla is actually putting Superchargers. For example, look at this map:

The original image is from supercharge.info, so you can see the existing Superchargers. They are near cities. The pinkish dots is where Superchargers should be for just long distance travel, assuming one needs a Supercharger to boost between cities.

I suspect that if Tesla had $2 billion up front to make a Supercharger network, they would not have deployed them the way they have thus far. Instead, it makes more sense to have them about 20 miles outside of cities on major routes. That way, there is a Supercharger near-ish to the city so that you can grab a charge on your way out if you need it or grab a charge on your way in as you are running low.

That does make sense - but I see a catch - there are nine cities with superchargers on that map; but there are twelve pink dots. So it would have actually cost more (if we are only talking about capital costs, that is) - and of course not taking into account cities with multiple SCs at the moment.

It depends on the spacing as well. If a city is actually a mid point between two other cities, it may make sense to put just one in the city itself, rather than two (one either side, about 1/3 of the way from the mid-point city to each of the other two). Start looking at the road network of an entire country and it starts getting complicated very fast!