[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance

[CWT3LR]

No, that is incorrect. The regulations are built to allow AutoSteer on motorways which have very wide corners. The limit is 3m/s^2, from this you can work out the maximum speed that can be used to take a corner.

The formula is a = v^2 /R where a is acceleration, v the speed, and R the radius of turn. So rearranging this to R = v2 /a

Lets assume you are driving at 15mph when taking a roundabout, 15mph = 6.7m/s. With a limit of 3 m/s^2 for acceleration R = (6.7)^2 / 3 = 14m

Here is a typical roundabout near me, not a mini roundabout but a proper roundabout with a little garden in the middle. As you can see from the measurement there is no way that you could keep on the carriageway at 15mph when using this roundabout.

View attachment 873511

and here is a miniroundabout

View attachment 873512

It is physically impossible to self-drive on these type of roads with the 3m/s^2 limit on Autosteer, the reality is that when we are driving ourselves, we pull at least 8 m/s^2 or much more.

Current regulations prevent FSD in the UK and EU.

Without wishing to be too disparaging at your attempt at lower sixth dynamics, you clearly have no idea what the 3m/s/s is derived from. Yaw rates, forward velocity vectors and centripetal forces / centripetal acceleration is well beyond a discussion on this forum.

The upper limit for a typical road car, in excellent condition, new tyres, properly inflated, on a flat road cornering on a consistent radius curve is 9m/s/s. However, if you want to allow for a linear response (the one that allows most drivers to properly react to cornering forces, allow for differences in pneumatic pressure, suspension wear, tyre wear etc- lateral acceleration limit is around 3m/s/s. If you try to corner at 8m/s/s you are nothing less than a hooligan looking to kill yourself or others. That's why the limit has been set at a very sensible level - based on science, not sentiment.

 

[CWT3LR]

Which is why I showed the larger roundabout, the normal flow of traffic is easily faster than 15mph. You can't just assume you would travel at increasingly tiny speeds to make your argument work.

15mph is not fast.

Dear oh dear

 

[CWT3LR]

Why not just go slower then??? Who would take a small mini roundabout at 15 mph anyway?! I disagree humans are pulling '8 m/s^2 or much more' in normal driving - that's almost 1G!! That's about the maximum lateral acceleration a normal road car with standard tyres can achieve in good dry conditions! You generally need a performance car with sticky tyres to get over 1G lateral. Most normal driving manoeuvres will be somewhere less than 2 m/s^2, with 3 being on the limit of reasonable comfort. Hence 3 m/s is a perfectly reasonable limit for comfort and safety for autonomous driving. If that can't be achieved by an autonomous car it arguably isn't good enough!

I think it was the US NHTSA who studied car accidents and driver beahviours, and concluded that anything around 4m/s/s was basically dangerous irrespective of circumstances?

EDIT: The 100 Car Naturalistic Driving Study. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/100carmain.pdf

So. nothing to do with the regs, the regs are there for safety first (and probably comfort too if you don't want to scare Granny to death). Blaming the regs for Tesla's incompetence is just an attempt at a reality distortion field.

 

[DeejUK]

Yes there should, but current limit is way too low and would kick out on a roundabout let alone a sharpish corner at surrounding traffic speeds

I had EAP or whatever it was called before the cars started to adhere to UNECE regulations, and Autopilot would take bends on motorway exits unnervingly fast - faster than I or the missus would.

Without wishing to be too disparaging at your attempt at lower sixth dynamics

Can we not be more polite than that? When was the last time you had your mind changed by someone being condescending?

 

[CWT3LR]

I had EAP or whatever it was called before the cars started to adhere to UNECE regulations, and Autopilot would take bends on motorway exits unnervingly fast - faster than I or the missus would.

Can we not be more polite than that? When was the last time you had your mind changed by someone being condescending?

About as often as it being changed by someone being completely wrong.

 

[LiamPope]

Which is why I showed the larger roundabout, the normal flow of traffic is easily faster than 15mph. You can't just assume you would travel at increasingly tiny speeds to make your argument work.

15mph is not fast.

I mean a roundabout like that you can pretty much straight-line a first exit in free flowing traffic, so above 15 mph, yeah sure. But to actually drive around that or a similar typical A/B road roundabout I'd say 15 mph is bordering on fast yes. But not massively - using your picture above the large roundabout looks to have a driveable radius around 10 m. Keeping within the 3 m/s^2 limit you can do that just over 12 mph - perfectly fine.

But my main point was your figure of '8 m/s^2 or much more' is nowhere near normal safe comfortable human driving. As I said, it is in fact close to the physical cornering limit of normal road cars in good conditions! 8 m/s^2 is a hard swerve - that's squealing tyres and throwing the occupants and contents of the vehicle against the doors/windows! You do not need the regs to allow anywhere near that to make FSD possible. The limit of 3 m/s^2 is more than enough to allow for confident human parity FSD. This is backed up by plenty of studies/papers. Your suggestion that it makes FSD physically impossible doesn't hold water. 3 m/s^2 is not the realm of road sweepers and mobility scooters - it's just normal driving.

 

[JupiterMan]

So what you are saying is the regulations requiring safety to be the primary factor in automation are preventing Tesla from releasing FSD in Europe - implying that Tesla cannot meet reasonable safety requirements? In which case, no-one in their right mind would pay for FSD in any event if Tesla cannot meet reasonable minimum standards. Unless of course they are happy to see US levels of death / serious injury on our vastly safer roads.

No.

I'm saying that the UNECE rules will not currently allow FSDBeta as a level 2 driving aid. There are functions with which a human drives quite safely which the UNECE will not allow to be automated.

 

[Zilla91]

Such as?

 

[JupiterMan]

Such as?

lane changes

 

[MrBadger]

lane changes

We allready mentioned that. There is a lot more to FSD than unconfirmed lane changes. FSD with confirmed lane changes, not a blocking issue.

I'm happy to concede that the regs would not allow FSD city streets beta if there was a regulation that would actually prevent it, rather than give us 95% (or whatever someone is willing to reduce lack of unconfirmed lane change by) of it with a bit or user intervention, just like now with NoA. But I have yet to see any evidence of a killer blocker caused by the regs.

I am sure many who have paid for FSD would prefer 95% (or whatever) of FSD city streets beta rather than the 0% that we have now. So much more to FSD beta than having to occasionally confirm a lane change.

 

[Zilla91]

lane changes

Funny that other manufacturers are able to execute auto lane changes without any timeout issues

 

[LiamPope]

lane changes

I'd agree summon and smart summon are well and truly cock blocked in Europe, but FSDbeta not so much. Lane change needs simple confirmation - already implemented in EAP. It shouldn't be a huge task to program Euro rules into FSDbeta if they had the desire to do so, imho. Maybe they just can't figure out roundabouts though!

 

[CWT3LR]

I'd agree summon and smart summon are well and truly cock blocked in Europe, but FSDbeta not so much. Lane change needs simple confirmation - already implemented in EAP. It shouldn't be a huge task to program Euro rules into FSDbeta if they had the desire to do so, imho. Maybe they just can't figure out roundabouts though!

My understanding is that summon works reasonably on Hyundai and Kia, probably others too. It's just the fact that Tesla chooses phone over a £10 fob, with limited Blueteeth range and camera sensor control.

Roundabouts are clearly too new for Tesla to have incorporated into the code. I mean, the first one was introduced as recently as 1907.

 

[Bestill]

I suppose USS-gate will have to be the Q4 talking front now that parcel shelves and slightly smoother suspension has been cleared up.

I find it hard to believe that there’ll be October made cars with the sensors - seems like a tiny change, and a full RoRo batch of cars can be built in one day.

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best - I won’t be rejecting my car for this, but I’ll be mightily annoyed! Probably try and plead ignorance with what I ordered not being fully delivered! And you never know, by November the solution could be resolved enough.

Although if I ordered EAP my tune would probably be different….

Picked up 2023 Model Y last night. No alarms, no red or yellow lines on screen when backing close to other cars. NOTHING. Nada. Have been driving a2018 Model 3 for 4 years. This takes away the Tesla driving experience; nothing special. Thinking of rejecting car….not what I ordered 8+ Months ago. Wow!

 

[CWT3LR]

Picked up 2023 Model Y last night. No alarms, no red or yellow lines on screen when backing close to other cars. NOTHING. Nada. Have been driving a2018 Model 3 for 4 years. This takes away the Tesla driving experience; nothing special. Thinking of rejecting car….not what I ordered 8+ Months ago. Wow!

If you DO reject, I feel bad for you as we all have an excitement in picking up a new car. But the Y has awful rear visibility through the rear window, poor mirrors especially at night, and an unusable rear bumper camera in rain. Without USS I feel it would be almost beyond my abi.ity to drive without bashing it on narrow British streets, driveways, car parks etc.

Alternatives like Ioniq 5 and EV6 seem to be really competitive, and there are lots of other vehicles before needing to consider BMW, Audi etc where the tech is likely to remain unchanged or modestly improved through its life, not hobbled with each update like Tesla's current strategy for "improvements".

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

 

[Bestill]

So dealership staff were surprised, said something not right. Called 2nd staff, who had to call Corporate. Cars just started coming in with NO alerts. Said there was a big “announcement “, but even staff don’t know what it meant or understand. They wanted to blame it on labor shortage at the dealership. And tried to promote FSD, even though it also wouldn’t fix the problem. saying since I drove it off the lot, can’t reject it. “No return policy”. They understand my “frustration “. Bait and switch!

 

[Bestill]

If you DO reject, I feel bad for you as we all have an excitement in picking up a new car. But the Y has awful rear visibility through the rear window, poor mirrors especially at night, and an unusable rear bumper camera in rain. Without USS I feel it would be almost beyond my abi.ity to drive without bashing it on narrow British streets, driveways, car parks etc.

Alternatives like Ioniq 5 and EV6 seem to be really competitive, and there are lots of other vehicles before needing to consider BMW, Audi etc where the tech is likely to remain unchanged or modestly improved through its life, not hobbled with each update like Tesla's current strategy for "improvements".

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

Thanks. They claim I’m stuck with it.

 

[LiamPope]

Picked up 2023 Model Y last night. No alarms, no red or yellow lines on screen when backing close to other cars. NOTHING. Nada. Have been driving a2018 Model 3 for 4 years. This takes away the Tesla driving experience; nothing special. Thinking of rejecting car….not what I ordered 8+ Months ago. Wow!

How dare you come here and make an on topic post!!

 

[LiamPope]

So dealership staff were surprised, said something not right. Called 2nd staff, who had to call Corporate. Cars just started coming in with NO alerts. Said there was a big “announcement “, but even staff don’t know what it meant or understand. They wanted to blame it on labor shortage at the dealership. And tried to promote FSD, even though it also wouldn’t fix the problem. saying since I drove it off the lot, can’t reject it. “No return policy”. They understand my “frustration “. Bait and switch!

Wow dude you have the worst dealership ever!! The 'big announcement' was all over the internet and Tesla's own website and couldn't be much clearer! Ultrasonic sensors (aka parking sensors) are gone. Park Assist (aka the lines and beepy beeps feature you are referring to) is also gone until they figure out how to do something like it with the cameras. Unbelievable dealership staff dont know this!! Name and shame! Are you in Santa Barbara, UK, or Santa Barbara Ireland?

 

[Zilla91]

My understanding is that summon works reasonably on Hyundai and Kia, probably others too. It's just the fact that Tesla chooses phone over a £10 fob, with limited Blueteeth range and camera sensor control.

Roundabouts are clearly too new for Tesla to have incorporated into the code. I mean, the first one was introduced as recently as 1907.

New BMW i7 has a summon feature that you control via the MyBMW app, I wonder if it will be as flaky as Tesla’s implementation?