This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[SidetrackedSue]

Yup. That's all I was asking for.

So you'll settle for that instead of post #131 that shows you the screen settings one needs to press and the definition of what you get when you engage Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (beta).

Also post #137 conveniently doesn't include the manual's section on Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta).

Follow the link given: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-101D1BF5-52D2-469A-A57D-E7230BBEE94B.html

Now IGNORE what Kevy Baby posted to you as conclusive proof, and look to the left side of that screen at the menu. Click on Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control.

That takes you to this link:

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-A701F7DC-875C-4491-BC84-605A77EA152C.html

And the key phrase, which has been linked to and quoted in at least a half dozen posts now, along with the testimony from those who have been using this feature that Kevy Baby claims they don't have (or only have now because of the free FSDS trial) and read:

Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control is designed to recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs, slowing Model S to a stop when using Traffic-Aware cruise control or Autosteer. This feature uses the vehicle's forward-facing cameras, in addition to GPS data, and slows the car for all detected traffic lights, including green, blinking yellow, and off lights in addition to stop signs and some road markings. As Model S approaches an intersection, the instrument panel displays a notification indicating the intention to slow down. You must confirm that you want to continue or Model S stops at the red line displayed on the instrument panel's driving visualization.

 

[zoomer0056]

So you'll settle for that instead of post #131 that shows you the screen settings one needs to press and the definition of what you get when you engage Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (beta).

What do you mean, settle for what?

 

[arbitrage000]

The behavior is different depending on your settings (this is from my experience with my 3-month FSD v11 trial, but I think it's still the same):
- If you have Full Self Driving selected, the car will go through green lights without waiting for input from the driver, but will stop at red lights.
- If you have Autosteer selected with Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control enabled, the car will stop at green lights unless you manually confirm you want the car to go through by tapping the accelerator (stop line changes from red to green in the visualization when you tap the accelerator).
- If you have TACC or Autosteer selected and Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control disabled, the car will ignore all stop signs and traffic lights and drive through them (unless it sees traffic).

Exactly. Which is how it works now on V12. He keeps saying his wife's car on V11 doesn't stop at greens but does stop at reds when he is in TACC with Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control Enabled.
So far no one else confirms that behaviour on V11. Some say it did that a long time ago but not on V11.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

What do you mean, settle for what?

You seemed to be accepting the 'proof' that KevyBaby was offering that one requires FSD software in order to have any traffic light and stop sign control. Other posts show that screens and the manual itself, not to mention the experience of non-FSD owners, that that feature is available under Autopilot.

 

[zoomer0056]

You seemed to be accepting the 'proof'

Not so, all I asked was for Kevin to support his statement. His bolded red highlighted words were not any sort of argument support. So he did provide documents to support his argument, that's all i was asking for. Way too many people (myself included) talk out of there arse and some just believe the hot air. It's best to support with documentation, right or wrong.

Other posts show that screens

Can you link to a post that shows these settings, as you say, in a screen capture?

 

[KelvinMace]

So the stopping at green lights when using TACC or EAP with stoplights/stop signs turned on just started with the latest 2024.3.10 (FSD 12.3.3) FW?
I'm surprised by this as when I asked about this happening people seemed to have been used to this behavior for a long while now.

I'd never had FSD or EAP before so when I got the 1 month trial one thing I did was test out EAP with stoplight/stopsign control turned ON (an FSD feature) and I was surprised that it stops at green lights unless prodded forward. I couldn't figure out what the point of this was. But when I asked about it last week on the forums people explained how it works and it seemed like it had been like this for awhile.

Can others confirm when this behavior changed? Was it only with FSD V12? V11 never did this?

My wife's 2018 3P has not been updated, and TACC still works fine, proceeding through green lights (without prompting), while stopping at stop signs/red lights. My car (2018 3LR), did this from the introduction of "stop light/stop sign control" several years ago, and stopped when upgraded to v12. I mean what would be the point of a feature that either blows through red lights, or stops at every single one, even when green? I had never questioned this function until it disappeared. Obviously, the software has the ability to proceed through green lights, since it does so when in FSD mode.

As I ponder it, I think Tesla allowed my car to do this in TACC mode, because I had paid for AP (now called FSD (Supervised)). But when it made the inane decision to get rid of the ability to invoke TACC with a single stalk pull, and AP with a double stalk pull, they then segregated that feature to ONLY work with AP. This would mean they intend for "traffic control" recognition to only be available in AP (despite the fact you can turn it on/off in TACC).

For me, city driving has gone from a pleasant experience with TACC, to a herky-jerky experience every block with v12.3.3.

 

[KelvinMace]

Well, it's in the Tesla Model S North America Manual (and the Model 3 manual and presumably in the other models' manuals):

Here is Autopilot described exactly as I stated it

View attachment 1037483

Then it describes what gets added by EAP

View attachment 1037484

And finally, it tells what is added in FSP (notice the first bullet point that specifically states that one most have FSD to get the Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (something that @KelvinMace doesn't seem to get).

View attachment 1037485

This is the same manual that is in your car - it is just easier to screenshot it on my computer.

Which I have just figured out (Stop Sign/Light Control). So, if this is selectable under TACC, and I have paid for AP (now FSD (Supervised)), why did they take it away from me? TACC is now useless for city driving, and AP (even v12) is unreliable and stressful to use in the city.

Also, if we go back to Musk's original mission to make cars safer, why remove this feature from TACC, as quite a few accidents (and deaths) occur when people blow through stop signs/lights? Making it "work" only by forcing the driver to confirm every green light makes the feature more problematic to use (and annoying) since it starts slowing down way before it has to, increasing the chance of being rear-ended in city driving.

 

[ewoodrick]

And the point of all this is?

If you have it, you have it, if you don't you don't.

Which is pretty much on-par for most Tesla features.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

For me, city driving has gone from a pleasant experience with TACC, to a herky-jerky experience every block with v12.3.3.

Welcome to owning a tesla. Unless you reject all updates (virtually impossible unless you are willing to forgo warranty repairs), you will have your car changed on you.

In your case, you now have to confirm you wish the car to proceed through the green light each time you come up on one, at least that's what the current manual says is the behaviour to expect (but to be honest, I thought it was always that way and only FSDb went through green lights without needing confirmation it was safe to do so, when the feature was first available for us 2? years ago, we tried it out, disliked it so turned it off.)

 

[Kevy Baby]

... AP (now FSD (Supervised)...

FSDs is not AP. They are still separate things.

 

[Dewg]

FSDs is not AP. They are still separate things.

You can go into Settings - Autopilot and switch to TACC. However, I think their complaint is that a long time ago TACC, with Stop Traffic Control, would stop at red lights and go at green lights. Now if will stop at all intersections, even if they're green.

Personally, I've had my MY for over 3 years and it's never had that behavior - it always asked for confirmation at intersections if there was no lead car. Somehow that is not their experience.

 

[Kevy Baby]

You can go into Settings - Autopilot and switch to TACC.

My point is that FSDs is not AP: they are separate things. The post I was responding to was claiming that "AP (now FSD (Supervised)" (that AP no longer exists and is now known as FSDs) and that is not correct.

Just because all of the FSDs settings are under the "Autopilot" submenu does not mean that they are the same thing: it is just lazy programming.

But then again, this person keeps making all sorts of factually incorrect statements, so I should just give up.

 

[alsetyledom280]

If you drive between st Louis and Cleveland each day, FSD is great. If you drive on rural roadsz with little traffic, FSD is great.

For most people, as long as it remains level 2 and need full attention legally and Tesla does not claim responsibility in fsd related accidents, FSD is more stress than normal driving. This explains why 1bn FSD miles over 400k enabled Tesla cars represents only 200 miles/month fsd miles for tesla, ie most people take it as toy and do NOT use it often. Tesla knows this very well. There are diehard FSD users, but they are minority and are not statistical meaningful for Tesla bottom line

Once FSD reaches level 3/4/5 and Tesla takes legal responsibility, it would be different story. For level 3/4/5 and robotaxi, Tesla needs to remove steering wheel etc. It has to be fully autonomous or not, there is no middle ground to remove that stress strictly for day to day driving.

I pay probably $20/month for Netflix, I seldom watch it and never cancel as I do watch a few times a year, there is no downside risk for me except for $20. Why would I pay $99 when downside risk is beyond my control. I am happy to pay 99 if Tesla claims legal responsibility when FSD is not working as expected.

As for ai related training, I would also imagine 1bn fsd miles is probably more than enough. How many edge cases we can possibly have for unprotected left turn, 20, 200 or 1000 edge cases of UPL? We don't need another 5bn miles to understand 1000 UPL edge cases. I would argue by now computer games or simulations will provide better and higher quality training data to Tesla at this stage. Another 5bn or 10bn FSD miles just adds huge repetitions and are not efficient and effective for ai training purposes.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Once FSD reaches level 3/4/5 and Tesla takes legal responsibility, it would be different story. For level 3/4/5 and robotaxi, Tesla needs to remove steering wheel etc. It has to be fully autonomous or not, there is no middle ground to remove that stress strictly for day to day driving.

Level 3 still requires human controls, because a level 3 car may realize that it is about to drive into a situation beyond its ability and warn the human driver to take over (this is different from level 2, where the human driver must constantly supervise because the car may not know that it is about to drive into a situation beyond its ability).

Level 4 may require human controls, but is capable enough that situations beyond its ability can be avoided without requiring a human to take control before it safely and legally parks somewhere (but it may then say something like "if you want to go to ____, you must drive"). A robotaxi limited to a specific area may be level 4 in being fully capable within that specific area, but refuse to drive outside of it (and is capable enough not to get trapped) and therefore not need human controls.

Level 5 would not require human controls.

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

Nobody is being forced. Dramatic much?

People without it are being shown how it works and given an opportunity to experience it. That is all. Use it. Don’t use it. Completely up to each individual.

Wasn't my wife's experience today.

FSD was activated automatically without her knowledge.

Then when she went to switch on cruise control, she unexpectedly got FSD instead.

FSD almost wrecked the car for her, as it switched lanes into a right turn lane far too early and she had to swerve back to avoid a curb.

 

[ewoodrick]

If you drive between st Louis and Cleveland each day, FSD is great. If you drive on rural roadsz with little traffic, FSD is great.

For most people, as long as it remains level 2 and need full attention legally and Tesla does not claim responsibility in fsd related accidents, FSD is more stress than normal driving. This explains why 1bn FSD miles over 400k enabled Tesla cars represents only 200 miles/month fsd miles for tesla, ie most people take it as toy and do NOT use it often. Tesla knows this very well. There are diehard FSD users, but they are minority and are not statistical meaningful for Tesla bottom line

Once FSD reaches level 3/4/5 and Tesla takes legal responsibility, it would be different story. For level 3/4/5 and robotaxi, Tesla needs to remove steering wheel etc. It has to be fully autonomous or not, there is no middle ground to remove that stress strictly for day to day driving.

I pay probably $20/month for Netflix, I seldom watch it and never cancel as I do watch a few times a year, there is no downside risk for me except for $20. Why would I pay $99 when downside risk is beyond my control. I am happy to pay 99 if Tesla claims legal responsibility when FSD is not working as expected.

As for ai related training, I would also imagine 1bn fsd miles is probably more than enough. How many edge cases we can possibly have for unprotected left turn, 20, 200 or 1000 edge cases of UPL? We don't need another 5bn miles to understand 1000 UPL edge cases. I would argue by now computer games or simulations will provide better and higher quality training data to Tesla at this stage. Another 5bn or 10bn FSD miles just adds huge repetitions and are not efficient and effective for ai training purposes.

While your conclusions of the data could be correct, I see it more like there are some owners of FSD that just don't use it. I know a number of people like that. To them the price really wasn't an issue.
Which then puts the average usage of those who do use it a lot higher.
But I believe that the numbers that you are using is off. If I am not mistaken, the 1dn includes any automated driving. And I don't think that the 400k is a known number, or at least I don't think that Tesla has ever published it.

Don't assume that AI has 1B miles of training available to it. Not everything that the car experiences is sent back to Tesla and not every Tesla sends it back.
And every new version of FSD requires retraining.

 

[KelvinMace]

FSDs is not AP. They are still separate things.

FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta), and before that Enhanced Autopilot, and before that Autopilot. Tesla keeps changing the names, and fragmenting the functions.

 

[Kevy Baby]

FSD was activated automatically without her knowledge.

This is not correct: it was not activated without the driver's consent. Just like those nifty Terms & Conditions one clicks OK to when installing/updating software on your computer, one must acknowledge that it is okay to activate FSD.

 

[Kevy Baby]

FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta), and before that Enhanced Autopilot, and before that Autopilot. Tesla keeps changing the names, and fragmenting the functions.

Nope (mostly)

From a FUNCTIONALITY standpoint (software stacks are a different topic)

• AP is still AP
• EAP is still EAP
• FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta) - this is the only correct part of the statement.

Perhaps this will change at the end of the FSD trial period, but as of right now (and according to the Tesla Manual), AP, EAP and FSDx are all separate things

Here's what you get with Autopilot (screenshot from the manual)

Here's the functionality that gets ADDED for Enhanced Autopilot (screenshot from the manual)

Here's the functionality that gets ADDED for Full Self Driving (screenshot from the manual)

 

[ewoodrick]

Nope (mostly)

From a FUNCTIONALITY standpoint (software stacks are a different topic)

• AP is still AP
• EAP is still EAP
• FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta) - this is the only correct part of the statement.

Perhaps this will change at the end of the FSD trial period, but as of right now (and according to the Tesla Manual), AP, EAP and FSDx are all separate things

Here's what you get with Autopilot (screenshot from the manual)


Here's the functionality that gets ADDED for Enhanced Autopilot (screenshot from the manual)



Here's the functionality that gets ADDED for Full Self Driving (screenshot from the manual)

Read and understand exactly the words that @KelvinMace used. He did not say they are same. He said that it used to be.