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P85D NA delivery date moved from late Feb. to late March now, and all 4 models delivery date is late March. So TM 15' Q1 production is about to be sold out probablay by mid-Jan.

EDIT: I guess 60, 85 and 85D delivery date will be moved into Q2 soon because TM always prioritize performance model over others and it's better for TM to leave the remaining production capacity for high margin model.

I just confirmed my order for an 85 for late March delivery. I didn't want to wait and risk having delivery pushed off till June. Additionally, my sales rep warned my that Model X orders would start coming in next quarter which could introduce even more delays for Model S buyers.
 
I just confirmed my order for an 85 for late March delivery. I didn't want to wait and risk having delivery pushed off till June. Additionally, my sales rep warned my that Model X orders would start coming in next quarter which could introduce even more delays for Model S buyers.
Model X is on its own line, so the pace of Model S production shouldn't be reduced by Model X production.
 
Model X is on its own line, so the pace of Model S production shouldn't be reduced by Model X production.

Some parts are shared/will be shared. Paint, stamping, and final assembly should all be on the same line. It will just be the body shop (body in white) that I believe will be separate and that is just because they are adding a second line anyway, so it makes sense to just split it. But if you look at the pictures from the conference in June everything was stated as shared. Unless I horribly missed something.

The only thing that was supposed to remain separate was the old final assembly line (what was left of it) was to remain as their "test line" so they could easier build prototypes and early production cars to test things out without interrupting their main line.

So yes, at some point the Model X will bump into the Model S production and they will have to decide how they want to balance it out. Hopefully they can stay high enough on production to avoid them bumping into each other too much but just like countries get starved out to serve other countries, they are likely going to have to do something similar with the X vs the S. With us getting a full ramp to 100k a year run rate by the end of 2015 this hopefully wont be too much of an issue. They can just pump whatever they need... at least until both car's demand surpasses a combined 100k need. But I would think they will continue to ramp up the lines (add more) as needed to accommodate and that the 100k run rate won't be the end of it. It will likely settle closer to 150k. But X demand is likely to take about a year, at least, to ramp up to the same global demand levels of the S (or pass it). Just a guess... but seems reasonable.
 
As noted by Maoing, projected wait times changed in US. After updating the table, the wait times changed in Canada as well. Changes in wait times as compared to previous update are shown in blue italics.

Following the note by Maoing on change in NA wait time, after checking the other countries, lead time was updated for almost all markets - shown in blue italics below. Essentially there is a solid 4+ month of backlog. This is equivalent to backlog of at least 17K reservations.

This means that if TM increases production to 1200 car/week it will take more than a year - 65 weeks - to reduce wait time to a reasonable 4 weeks, assuming that demand plateaued at current level.

If TM increases production to 1500 cars/week it will take 6 month - 26 weeks - to reduce wait time to a reasonable 4 weeks, assuming that demand does not change.

In practical terms it means that TM continues to be seriously production constrained, and have to increase production as much as is possible, without any concern of running out of backlog. Given that body in white and paint shop are scheduled to be upgraded in Q1, and MX production will start by the end of Q3, I can see TM steadily increasing production beyond 1000 cars/week following the Q1 upgrades. The conservative maximum production after upgrades was quoted by Elon at 2,500 cars/week, presumably with a two shift operation. They can increase production to 1500 cars/week, subject to manufacturing limitations, and stay at this level right into the start of MX production, and still have a minimum of 4 weeks of backlog.

Wait Time 2015-01-07.png
 
I do not think so - during the last ER call Elon specifically mentioned that these upgrades will be different than the assembly line upgrade, in that they will have minimal impact on production.

Actually, I thought they said it would have no impact on the production, but yeah, either way... there shouldn't be major problems. Body in White (Body Assembly) is getting a whole second line put in, so they won't be cannibalizing the first BiW line to build this one and the paint shop I assume they can't really use any of the old stuff for the new paint shop which is why it will be non-impacting. When the new paint shop comes online, my impression is that this will be able to handle max factory capacity of 500k cars a year (just like stamping is also able to handle) and should therefore be the last upgrade needed in that part of the factory.

Anyway, that was how I understood the details as they had been given. Point is, we should just see a nice steady increase in Production without disturbing or pushing back customers. Which is good because there are bound to be a couple hiccups as the Model X comes into production.
 
Actually, I thought they said it would have no impact on the production, but yeah, either way... there shouldn't be major problems. Body in White (Body Assembly) is getting a whole second line put in, so they won't be cannibalizing the first BiW line to build this one and the paint shop I assume they can't really use any of the old stuff for the new paint shop which is why it will be non-impacting. When the new paint shop comes online, my impression is that this will be able to handle max factory capacity of 500k cars a year (just like stamping is also able to handle) and should therefore be the last upgrade needed in that part of the factory.

Anyway, that was how I understood the details as they had been given. Point is, we should just see a nice steady increase in Production without disturbing or pushing back customers. Which is good because there are bound to be a couple hiccups as the Model X comes into production.

Yes, the main point I was trying to make is that TM might be hesitant to significantly and quickly ramp up if the backlog is not large enough to carry them long term at the new rate. My conclusion is that they have a very significant backlog, and the only limitation for increasing production is manufacturing constraints.

Incidentally, I went back and checked the transcript. The conversation that I referred to actually happened during the Q2 ER call, not the latest call, and Elon said that TM should be able to bring up the body in white line in parallel with the existing line:

We're going to bring the body line up in parallel with the current line. So unlike this case with the assembly, we had to -- we didn't have too complete assembly lines, where we had to stop and retool. In the case of new SX body line, which is a line that is designed to be capable of 2,500 units a week, maybe more than that, conservatively at 2,500 units a week, at a lower cost point, we should be able to do that in parallel.

Another interesting think that seem to be flying under the radar is that new body in white line, according to Elon during the latest earnings call, will be the most precise in the world. So it will not only be able to reduce the cost, but also greatly improve precision of the body assembly process:

The big thing in the first half of next year is going to be the new body line creating sort of the skeleton of the car and the exterior body panels and all that which is intended to be a step change technology improvement from our current body line and allow for a much greater volume as well as exceptional precision in the way the car is made.
We're aiming with the new body line for a level of precision that no car in the world has. You should be able to practically use our car as a yardstick with the new body line that's getting made.

 
Thanks for taking the time to go back through the conference call, I was mostly throwing the information out there so we can hopefully all stay on the same page on what we understand will be happening. Your main point was a good one, though, which is that regardless of how they ramp getting back to 1 month wait times is going to take a while.

The only thing to consider outside of that is if demand falls off some. I am not really too concerned about this, but it should be noted that with both the P85D and 85D coming out this likely boosted demand a bit more than it reasonably should be at this point. Even Elon mentioned as much with regard to the last Conference call he said current demand immediately following the D event was around 70k, but he was giving a more conservative number of 50k simply because he knew the number would come down some (although how much is unknown). It could also be that by the time demand does start to come down, the underlying demand levels (uninflated by the new products) will have caught up to a point where it tracks sideways for a bit.

demand.PNG


I hope this chart makes sense. These are just hypothetical numbers to show what I am getting at and in no way am I making a prediction here. This is also an extrapolated weekly order rate assuming it stayed flat, in the same way Elon threw out the 70k number. It might have been less confusing to show a chart that has a weekly intake rate of like 769 = 40,000 or 1346 = 70,000... but hopefully this makes sense.

Anyway, with this, the blue is the growth of the Model S demand based on No-D product being released... if they just kept on with the RWD only cars. I am just assuming a nice slow growth rate here. Then you have the surge of orders thanks to the new product release. I will assume that keeps up for a solid quarter before tapering back as demand is satisfied across both the P85D and the 85D as you have people in two categories here: Those who are upgrading from a previous model S and those who are otherwise new customers who were waiting for an AWD option (or some other recently added feature, like heated steering wheel or the autopilot stuff). Clearly as the surge of new customers tapers off, this number would come down.

Now the important number is the yellow real demand which includes the new feature set. This is an attempt to show a number that excludes the surge of customers, but includes the new addressable market (that is, those who wouldn't touch the model S unless it had those new features). This is the number of people who would be ordering the car (in my mind) as if Tesla had come out the gate in 2012 with these options available from the start.

So what you have here is the growth of real demand still rising (word of mouth, awareness, opening up to new markets, etc.) and the collapse of those who jumped on the "new" product... because... it's new. At some point the two lines meet and the Real Demand will take over. But the actual visible order rate we see (the red line) would appear that demand is falling off.

This is an important concept to understand, and what Elon was trying to get at on the lastest conference call. That demand is likely to fall back since right now the 70k order rate is not sustainable. How much it falls back and how that affects the wait times and the real demand is up in the air. Elon came in with the (assumed conservative) number of 50k real demand for 2015. The point is, our wait times could likely drop down as the surge dies off and the underlying demand gets reached.
 
Alright, updated delivery lead tables now reflect the following:
  • 85D in NA went from late March to late April
  • P85D in Europe went from Late April to May
  • 60/85 in China went from Late March to April

Overall, based on wesite wait time estimates it seems that TM is continuing to maintain currently a four month backlog. This is consistent with Elon in recent interviews mentioning that wait time for various regions is between 3 and 5 months. Based on my post here the current production rate is a minimum of 1,100= cars /week. So the estimated backlog is at least 16 x 1,100 = 17,600 cars.

Adding the MX reservations, TM is likely to have a whopping 40,000 vehicle backlog.

ROFL reading the bears continuing to strenuously argue the diminishing demand...

Wait Time 2015-01-18.png


- - - Updated - - -

Since everything else still says late March I'm Guessing there is some production or supply constraint with the smaller motor. P85D only needs one motor and has a higher margin so it seems that those are prioritized.

I do not believe the change in wait time is due to supply constraints, it is just that Late March slots for NA 85Ds were filled. Therefore current orders are slated for delivery in Late April.
 
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Great! Thanks Vgrin. The high demand is not a news now. What we most want to see is when TM can beat its quarters guidance, hopefully it'll be Q1 ER in May.

Alright, updated delivery lead tables now reflect the following:
  • 85D in NA went from late March to late April
  • P85D in Europe went from Late April to May
  • 60/85 in China went from Late March to April

...
 
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Vgrin, do you see Tesla projecting more than 13200 (1100 rate for 12 weeks) production goal for q1? If so, that alone will be satisfactory.

I think production is and has always been the tough question to figure out. I would be more than happy hitting 13000. I would actually be fine just pulling 1000 more than whatever we hit for this quarter just to show that this Q4 production isn't a fluke and that they are still pushing forward.
 
Vgrin, do you see Tesla projecting more than 13200 (1100 rate for 12 weeks) production goal for q1? If so, that alone will be satisfactory.

I think it is likely, but there are some uncertainties which might affect TM projections.

One thing that need to be recognized is that the overall assembly line was upgraded during summer and can support much higher than the current run rate with a two shift operation (up to 2,500 cars/week), but the body-in-white (BIW) assembly was slated to be upgraded in Q1. In the meanwhile, the existing BIW production capacity is still limited to a two shift production of 800 cars/week. In order to ramp production TM is currently operating BIW assembly for more than 80 hours a week. In order to operate at 1,100 cars/week they need to add shifts to operate BIW at 110 hrs/week (1100 / 800 x 80 = 110). A 1,200 cars/week rate will require BIW line to operate for 120 hrs/week.

It is my understanding that TM is achieving this by using additional temporary workforce, and, possibly, also using some OT by existing staff workforce.

Going back to the original question, the addition of the new BIW line, according to Elon, is not going to impact the operation of the existing BIW line. The question is how sustainable is the operation of the existing BIW line at 110-120 hrs/week from the point of view of staffing. If 100% of additional staffing is fulfilled using temporary workforce it is probably more sustainable then if TM is substantially relying on OT by the existing staff.

One thing I know for certain is that TM was planning to hire temporary staff to take operation of existing BIW line to a 24/7 level for sustained period of time. I, however, do not know how successful they were in hiring enough temporary workforce to make this happen.

In addition, there might be other production areas that need to be operated at more than 80 hours/week to support higher than 800 cars/week run rate.

I am looking forward to learn more on the BIW line upgrade during the ER call.
 
If you check the Tracking S85D Delivery Thread, quite some owners reported the delivery date has been pushed out. It worries me that TM might still have production or supply issue in Q1 especially for S85D. Given a large backlog orders from S85D, so Q1 production rate could still sit barely above 1000/week and we won't see an inspired Q1 guidance in next ER.

There are going to be customers left out of certain production queues every quarter due to routing.
 
If you check the Tracking S85D Delivery Thread, quite some owners reported the delivery date has been pushed out. It worries me that TM might still have production or supply issue in Q1 especially for S85D. Given a large backlog orders from S85D, so Q1 production rate could still sit barely above 1000/week and we won't see an inspired Q1 guidance in next ER.

In case you missed my post on the subject, according to Elon speaking during the Detroit appearance, current production rate is at least 1098 cars/wweek, and possibly up to 1,200 cars/week: Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015 - Page 61
 
I did see your post. But Elon's comments sometimes are not very accurate. IMO, TM should had hit 1200/week rate in Q4 if there has no here and there issues. So S85D delay would be a new evidence that TM still has some production issues in Q1 than original expectation.

In case you missed my post on the subject, according to Elon speaking during the Detroit appearance, current production rate is at least 1098 cars/wweek, and possibly up to 1,200 cars/week: Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015 - Page 61