$12K for FSD is insane

[COS Blue]

If it a problem endemic to active cruise, and all brands have some variety of it (some far worse than Tesla as cited)- how, specifically, should Tesla "do better"?

This thread originally is about how some people think it's ridiculous to charge $12k for "full self-driving". If Tesla wants to claim anything close to "full self-driving" they need to figure out phantom braking. It is a pretty basic part of driving -- not braking when you don't need to. Their system does a bad job. People are scared of it. "How" they fix it, I have no idea, but if they don't, to quote the title of the thread, "$12K for FSD is insane".

 

[JustJohn]

If you wish to only use the system where it's intended to work? Yes.

Same as any other system with a specific ODD.




For one- the type of road comes from map data.... which as many threads on here will attest is often wrong

So Tesla gives more agency to the owner, and lets THEM determine what kind of road they're on and engage the system or not... after telling them the type of road it's intended to be used on.

Caddy takes a different approach, their system flat out does not turn on at all other than on specific pre-approved roads.


Of course long term Tesla has always intended to expand the ODD-- that's what the beta is doing right now, you can use it (nearly) anywhere.





I think that's likely-- as I say lots of folks never bother to read the manual or understand the system they're using.

So if your argument is "Tesla should have assumed their drivers are dumb and will do it wrong if we let them" and gone with a more nanny-oriented approach like Caddy did, I'll agree that's a perfectly fair perspective.

For those of us who do bother to read the directions though I'm glad they didn't, since it leaves me able to use it, properly, in more places.






Sure you are. Just poorly.

You keep insisting this a Tesla problem, and a system that 'does not work' because the manual warns you it might not work in some cases--- despite being shown that every car makers adaptive cruise has the same issues and same warnings

Tesla's system, Tesla's problem.

You need to justify "physically impossible."

 

[COS Blue]

Re: Tesla being singled out, to the extent that it's true, it probably has to do with the wildly overstated capabilities of the system. They call it Autopilot, they call it Full Self Driving. To quote the WP article, Tesla’s chief executive, Elon Musk, has called Autopilot “unequivocally safer.” When you make claims like that, I think it's fair to hold you to a higher standard.

 

[AndreP]

Re: Tesla being singled out, to the extent that it's true, it probably has to do with the wildly overstated capabilities of the system. They call it Autopilot, they call it Full Self Driving. To quote the WP article, Tesla’s chief executive, Elon Musk, has called Autopilot “unequivocally safer.” When you make claims like that, I think it's fair to hold you to a higher standard.

I think this is likely a big part of it, and we don't have visibility to compare rates of occurrences across the different systems

 

[Knightshade]

Re: Tesla being singled out, to the extent that it's true, it probably has to do with the wildly overstated capabilities of the system. They call it Autopilot

And it is.

Folks mad about this are showing their ignorance of what autopilot actually is, and how it works on aircraft.

It's a system that handles some specific tasks, most often speed and steering... but still always requires human attention and supervision. Just like the car version Tesla offers.

It's far more accurate than names from other brands like COPILOT... which on an aircraft would be something capable of operating the vehicle without another human.

, they call it Full Self Driving.

They do, but the version currently sold explicitly tells you what it actually includes and does. Including the fact it's L2.

If you fail to read the description of what you are buying, that's really on you.

On a related note- Happy Meals don't actually cure depression....and Diaper Genies do not grant wishes.

Perhaps most egregiously, Radio Flyers neither fly nor receive radio!

This thread originally is about how some people think it's ridiculous to charge $12k for "full self-driving". If Tesla wants to claim anything close to "full self-driving" they need to figure out phantom braking.

There's a few problems here.

Most immediately fundamental is again the public version of FSD is a specific set of features.

It has no "braking" problem that's tesla specific, in fact FSD adds no braking features of any kind other than for stop lights and stop signs, and I've not heard of any rash of "phantom braking" with that feature... have you?

Plus again it's also very clear in the product description how much 'driving' it does versus how much the human is responsible for.

It is a pretty basic part of driving -- not braking when you don't need to. Their system does a bad job.

Again this does not appear supported by facts.

Tesla seems have have less NHTSA complaints than many other brands for this issue.

Tesla seems to have less recalls on less vehicles than other brands for this issue.


So unless your conclusion is everyone does a bad job your claim can not be true.
(and if everyone does a bad job I'm not sure what your point even is?)

People are scared of it.

People are scared of ghosts too. Doesn't make the fear any more rational despite it existing.

Nobody can point to any actual slew of accidents it's causing. And the fact Tesla continues to collect billions of miles of data with the system running tells us most owners are perfectly fine with continuing to use it

but if they don't, to quote the title of the thread, "$12K for FSD is insane".

But the complaint is focusing on TACC.

Which is free.

it costs $0.00.

FSD is a separate additional set of features that has nothing to do with phantom braking.

Hence the other poster lamenting that it's once again being used to derail a topic unrelated to it.

Tesla’s chief executive, Elon Musk, has called Autopilot “unequivocally safer.” When you make claims like that, I think it's fair to hold you to a higher standard.

Here's the data behind the claim.

Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla

At Tesla, we believe that technology can help improve safety. That’s why Tesla vehicles are engineered to be the safest cars in the world. We believe the unique combination of passive safety, active safety, and automated driver assistance is crucial for keeping not just Tesla drivers and...

www.tesla.com

Accident rates with Autopilot on have been lower than all other cases for all the years Tesla has tracked this data- and have generally continued to get better over time supporting the idea updates keep improving the system.

"here's actual accident rates on 2 million cars over 1 billion+ miles" seems to trump "My car scared me once"

Tesla's system, Tesla's problem.

Except, it's not. As you've repeatedly been shown.

It's everyones problem since everyone with adaptive cruise has it, regardless of vehicle brand.

The same warnings you dishonestly claimed was tesla trying to justify "their" problems exist in the manuals of all the other brands too.

 

[COS Blue]

They do, but the version currently sold explicitly tells you what it actually includes and does. Including the fact it's L2.

If you fail to read the description of what you are buying, that's really on you.

But we're not buying it. Because we have read about it and seen the videos, and we know "$12K for FSD is insane"!

 

[COS Blue]

It has no "braking" problem that's tesla specific, in fact FSD adds no braking features of any kind other than for stop lights and stop signs, and I've not heard of any rash of "phantom braking" with that feature... have you?

I don't think you can have FSD without TACC...

 

[JustJohn]

And it is.

Folks mad about this are showing their ignorance of what autopilot actually is, and how it works on aircraft.

It's a system that handles some specific tasks, most often speed and steering... but still always requires human attention and supervision. Just like the car version Tesla offers.

It's far more accurate than names from other brands like COPILOT... which on an aircraft would be something capable of operating the vehicle without another human.






They do, but the version currently sold explicitly tells you what it actually includes and does. Including the fact it's L2.

If you fail to read the description of what you are buying, that's really on you.

On a related note- Happy Meals don't actually cure depression....and Diaper Genies do not grant wishes.

Perhaps most egregiously, Radio Flyers neither fly nor receive radio!






There's a few problems here.

Most immediately fundamental is again the public version of FSD is a specific set of features.

It has no "braking" problem that's tesla specific, in fact FSD adds no braking features of any kind other than for stop lights and stop signs, and I've not heard of any rash of "phantom braking" with that feature... have you?

Plus again it's also very clear in the product description how much 'driving' it does versus how much the human is responsible for.




Again this does not appear supported by facts.

Tesla seems have have less NHTSA complaints than many other brands for this issue.

Tesla seems to have less recalls on less vehicles than other brands for this issue.


So unless your conclusion is everyone does a bad job your claim can not be true.
(and if everyone does a bad job I'm not sure what your point even is?)





People are scared of ghosts too. Doesn't make the fear any more rational despite it existing.

Nobody can point to any actual slew of accidents it's causing. And the fact Tesla continues to collect billions of miles of data with the system running tells us most owners are perfectly fine with continuing to use it




But the complaint is focusing on TACC.

Which is free.

it costs $0.00.

FSD is a separate additional set of features that has nothing to do with phantom braking.

Hence the other poster lamenting that it's once again being used to derail a topic unrelated to it.




Here's the data behind the claim.

Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla

At Tesla, we believe that technology can help improve safety. That’s why Tesla vehicles are engineered to be the safest cars in the world. We believe the unique combination of passive safety, active safety, and automated driver assistance is crucial for keeping not just Tesla drivers and...

www.tesla.com

Accident rates with Autopilot on have been lower than all other cases for all the years Tesla has tracked this data- and have generally continued to get better over time supporting the idea updates keep improving the system.

"here's actual accident rates on 2 million cars over 1 billion+ miles" seems to trump "My car scared me once"





Except, it's not. As you've repeatedly been shown.

It's everyones problem since everyone with adaptive cruise has it, regardless of vehicle brand.

The same warnings you dishonestly claimed was tesla trying to justify "their" problems exist in the manuals of all the other brands too.

Tesla has a system of their own design and Tesla owns the problems associated with it regardless of what other vendors do. Why are you so hung up on Tesla's culpability and why can't you justify your own specious claim?

 

[JustJohn]

Tesla owners report dozens of instances of ‘phantom braking’

Teslas are braking in response to imagined road obstacles

Tesla (TSLA) falls as more attention is brought to Autopilot's serious phantom braking issue

Tesla Has A Serious "Phantom Braking" Issue On Its Hands

Tesla owners are complaining about a problem that makes cars slam the brakes for no reason

Tesla Phantom Braking

Tesla’s Phantom Braking Problem Is Getting Worse

 

[Knightshade]

But we're not buying it. Because we have read about it

Then it's weird you claimed the name was an issue.

If you read and understand the description this shouldn't be a problem.

Even weirder you keep trying to bring up issues with TACC, which isn't something you get when you purchase FSD at all.

I don't think you can have FSD without TACC...

You seem to have what I wrote backward.

TACC comes free with the car.

How well it works or not doesn't change if you buy the public released FSD or not.

So why you think it has any bearing on deciding if an entirely different set of features is worth the price remains a mystery.

Tesla has a system of their own design and Tesla owns the problems associated with it regardless of what other vendors do

Except this is an inherent problem with any speed adjusting cruise control system.

So this isn't a problem "of their own design"

If it was, it wouldn't also exist in everyone elses design.

Your spamming the same story, whose laughable "surge" numbers have already been addressed, another 10 times with new links won't change that.

 

[Sporty]

Ok but then we are back to all cars with active cruise have these issues- some worse than Tesla (I cited such from numerous brands earlier in the thread- as recently as a couple posts ago for Nissan for example).

This "surge" was only about 100 people, out of a fleet of 2 million, and half of those were when a known buggy SW was released that was fixed a day later.

The vast vast vast majority of owners use TACC and AP a ton, and it continues to work fine 99.99% of the time for them, and nobody ever seems to be able to cite any case where the 0.01% of bad behavior actually caused an accident, it just annoyed them.

I think you are encouraging more people to complain.

I’ve stopped using it because of phantom breaking. I didn’t file a complaint. Instead I just stew at how bad the feature is and stopped using it. Of course I’m comparing it to other cars I’ve owned which had a cruise control that worked. I guess I’ve been lucky with my other cars.

 

[Sporty]

The braking bug was only on FSD Beta. At the time (10.3) there were only people with 100 score. So no. Half of those people were not on The buggy firmware.

Correct half of the reports can’t be discounted that way. As you point out, you probably can’t discount very many of them.

I sort of feel like turning it now so I can go file a report.

 

[AndreP]

I think you are encouraging more people to complain.

I’ve stopped using it because of phantom breaking. I didn’t file a complaint. Instead I just stew at how bad the feature is. Of course I’m comparing it to other cars I’ve owned which had a cruise control that worked. I guess I’ve been lucky with my other cars.

Anyone experiencing these issues should be reporting them regardless of brand, the regulators rely heavily on user reporting and directly use it to address problems with manufacturers -- squeaky wheels get the grease.

The investigation into Nissan phantom braking was also championed by an organization called The Center for Auto Safety, and their Recalls page lists Automatic Emergency Braking events as one of their "Ongoing Problems" along with Tesla Autopilot. But their Autopilot write-up is more around deceptive advertising, which could be kinda relevant to this thread

Tesla Autopilot

Tesla Autopilot

www.autosafety.org

This is their page about phantom braking

Automatic Emergency Braking

Automatic Emergency Braking

www.autosafety.org

And they have one about Kia/Hyundai non-crash fires

 

[CaptUAL]

Ha- There are so many more worthwhile things to spend friggen $12,000 on, then a machine that doesn’t work…….Yet.

 

[linux-works]

today, I was tailgated by some asshat driving a MB. so close to me, I tried to give him a hint that this was - uhhh - not so bright. I braked a few times to give him the idea but he just would not get it. he insisted on tailgating me.

the PB is probably what will push me over the edge and sell this car before I was ready to. I'd rather have no automation than one that triggers and causes me to get rear-ended.

people do tailgate. therefore, drivers should have the ability to 100% defeat any auto braking that the car does.

I hope this gets escalated. tesla needs a punch in the face, legally, since they are out of control. 100% unacceptable to do this. we are NOT test subjects, dammit. we're just people trying to NOT get killed by some jerk merc driver behind you.

I have aeb disabled and auto lane departure disabled. I disabled pretty much all I could, in this STUPID car.

yes, stupid. I now think this is a full step backwards. looking to trade the car in very soon. I've had enough.

 

[Big Dog]

today, I was tailgated by some asshat driving a MB. so close to me, I tried to give him a hint that this was - uhhh - not so bright. I braked a few times to give him the idea but he just would not get it. he insisted on tailgating me.

the PB is probably what will push me over the edge and sell this car before I was ready to. I'd rather have no automation than one that triggers and causes me to get rear-ended.

people do tailgate. therefore, drivers should have the ability to 100% defeat any auto braking that the car does.

I hope this gets escalated. tesla needs a punch in the face, legally, since they are out of control. 100% unacceptable to do this. we are NOT test subjects, dammit. we're just people trying to NOT get killed by some jerk merc driver behind you.

I have aeb disabled and auto lane departure disabled. I disabled pretty much all I could, in this STUPID car.

yes, stupid. I now think this is a full step backwards. looking to trade the car in very soon. I've had enough.

I get your frustration. My wife has the same fear bcos she spends almost as much time looking in her rearview mirror as looking forward. Me, otoh, almost never look in my rearview, so am totally unconcerned about a-holes tailgating.

Before passing judgement on PB, I'd like to see the numbers of rear-enders caused by it, if any. In other words, 'follow the science'.

 

[Knightshade]

I hope this gets escalated. tesla needs a punch in the face, legally, since they are out of control. 100% unacceptable to do this. we are NOT test subjects, dammit. we're just people trying to NOT get killed by some jerk merc driver behind you.

I have aeb disabled and auto lane departure disabled. I disabled pretty much all I could, in this STUPID car.

yes, stupid. I now think this is a full step backwards. looking to trade the car in very soon. I've had enough.

Given every brand on the market has phantom braking issues with any active cruise system, many worse than Tesla, what are you trading it in for, a 1955 Chevy or something?

 

[Sporty]

Given every brand on the market has phantom braking issues with any active cruise system, many worse than Tesla, what are you trading it in for, a 1955 Chevy or something?

Dude. My bmw never phantom braked. I’m sure sooner or later it probably would have happened. But my M3 will do it like clockwork.

 

[Knightshade]

Dude. My bmw never phantom braked.

Good for you!

Sadly, many other BMWs did.

Emergency Braking for no reason!!!

Emergency Braking for no reason!!!

x3.xbimmers.com

Have you ever experienced an emergency braking without any obstacles ahead like the title?
My car suddenly put on emergency braking with no obstacles in front of it while driving. The seat belt was pulled down and the speed decreased rapidly.

That happened once with my 2018 M40i. I was driving on a straight road about 45 mph. There was a change in pavement color from dark to slightly lighter (or vice versa). The emergency brake system engaged

or

Ghost braking

www.bimmerfest.com

I was driving down the left side (free of all traffic) of a two lane setup. The right lane was all backed up in a line. Nothing in front of me, was doing about 25mph. No pedestrians, nothing that I could see on the road and WHAM, the car decides it is time to stop.

I have a GMC with the same system. The same exact thing happened to me twice.

I've found a few times the collision warning loud beeps have gone off for no particular reason

This.
Happens.
To.
Every.
Brand.


Not every owner of every brand.

Not even MOST owners of any brand.

But it happens to SOME owners of EVERY brand.

 

[kabin]

Crazy how bad it gets with tree shadows randomly scattered about the roadways.