$12K for FSD is insane

[2101Guy]

Crazy how bad it gets with tree shadows randomly scattered about the roadways.

The WORST. Especially when the shade From the trees cast randomly along the highway. Makes the system unusable to the point where I have to shut it off.

And we are supposed to believe this system is going to drive itself as “robotaxi” within the next 11 months?

 

[linux-works]

remember how elon said it would drive across the country to come get you and pick you up.

yeah. about that, elon ....

 

[JustJohn]

We seem to have drifted from the OP's original opinion that $12k for a feature that doesn't deliver results is insane.
Other site members seem to feel that way about Tesla's system performance as well: Vision Only vs Radar - Observations from a 3 year owner

Of course if someone disagrees I won't be apoplectic about it.

 

[OncomingStorm]

I acutally think 12k for FSD is fair. I mean you are buying software, there are pieces of software that cost FAR more and do FAR less lol. not only that but you are getting any hardware upgrades that may or may not be required, that alone could easily cost well in excess off 12k. I do agree that the feature set you get out of the box (ignoring FSD Beta) could arguably be not worth the cost (tho i still think it is), but even if tesla never achieves full self driving it is a 100% guarantee that we will get new features that stem from that investment.

And lets remember that to get any of the features that emulate anything close to autopilot you typically have to buy the higher trim package which is often 10-20k, and telsa's get basic AP included, i think that's overlooked far too much.

 

[AndreP]

Good for you!

Sadly, many other BMWs did.

Emergency Braking for no reason!!!

Emergency Braking for no reason!!!

x3.xbimmers.com

or

Ghost braking

www.bimmerfest.com

This.
Happens.
To.
Every.
Brand.


Not every owner of every brand.

Not even MOST owners of any brand.

But it happens to SOME owners of EVERY brand.

Well your second link is to posts from 2016.

We need real numbers around the current rate of occurrences to do a comparison, preferably with data from the regulator/manufacturers. And we need to understand how manufacturers are responding to the issues to pass judgment on them.

In the first link you posted, the person said BMW claimed there was no issue because no AEB event was recorded. And it sounds like there was a legitimate electrical defect via a short in the sensor unit wires, so that's a bit different from phantom braking caused by a false positive in object detection from the software deployed.

 

[Knightshade]

Well your second link is to posts from 2016.

Ok, and the first is from 2020.

And it's not like legacy car companies do OTA updates to these systems every few weeks as Tesla does- most of them remain the same for years and years.

(and I expect if you put more than the 30 seconds per brand I did into reading those brand forums you'll find any number of more examples)

We need real numbers around the current rate of occurrences to do a comparison, preferably with data from the regulator/manufacturers.

I agree.

But instead we're getting "I PERSONALLY DID NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH BRAND X THEREFORE BRAND X DOES NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM"

Everyone has this problem though as I've shown.

Degree may well vary, but data is often hard to come by on that.

NHTSA complaints are public FWIW, but as noted #s tend to be low on all brands here, and require some work to get info out of

NHTSA Datasets and APIs | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

The SURGE number for Tesla for example was 51 complaints (the month following the FSD beta recall)

Excluding that all the monthly #s vary from 0 to 32. In a fleet of ~2 million.

 

[AndreP]

Ok, and the first is from 2020.

And it's not like legacy car companies do OTA updates to these systems every few weeks as Tesla does- most of them remain the same for years and years.

(and I expect if you put more than the 30 seconds per brand I did into reading those brand forums you'll find any number of more examples)

I agree.

But instead we're getting "I PERSONALLY DID NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH BRAND X THEREFORE BRAND X DOES NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM"

Everyone has this problem though as I've shown.

Degree may well vary, but data is often hard to come by on that.

NHTSA complaints are public FWIW, but as noted #s tend to be low on all brands here, and require some work to get info out of

NHTSA Datasets and APIs | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

The SURGE number for Tesla for example was 51 complaints (the month following the FSD beta recall)

Excluding that all the monthly #s vary from 0 to 32. In a fleet of ~2 million.

We know that reports aren't a true representation of occurrences and only capture people who went out of their way to report, so I think the regulators are looking more at trends and an uptick is a bad thing especially in this stage of the game. It's like COVID, we know testing isn't capturing all of the spread but the numbers are an indicator and trends can be trusted as long as the basis for measurement remains consistent.

If any of the other brands had a massive and sudden uptick in reports, that would also be a cause for concern and something that should be nipped in the bud before bad outcomes result. And I imagine that would be in the media, although it might not show up on as many people's radar because we're not watching BMW news to the same degree.

Tesla is the leader here and is undoubtedly held to a higher standard, both because of that and IMO the way the systems have been marketed. I'm looking at the Autopilot section of the Model Y manual right now and I think the vast majority of people would be blown away by the lists of warnings and limitations compared to how the public perceives its capabilities.

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla is the leader here and is undoubtedly held to a higher standard, both because of that and IMO the way the systems have been marketed. I'm looking at the Autopilot section of the Model Y manual right now and I think the vast majority of people would be blown away by the lists of warnings and limitations compared to how the public perceives its capabilities.

But as I pointed out earlier, every brand of car has the same kinds of warnings in the manual

I even quoted from several, with links to the full manual.

 

[DoctaM3]

As one who got on the trial for 3 month when I took delivery of my MYP in December 2020, I see the value. I had originally had it in the cost of my car and ditched it when I heard we had the trial. That was when it was $10k. I think the subscription model is ok but the current pricing is too high. I think what makes it worse is, the cost for purchase limits it t to the car so if you switch cars, it is gone and worse yet, if you sell the car back to Tesla, when they sell it, they remove FSD!

Instead, they should allow FSD to stay with the account. In that case, would I shell out $10K, yes. It would also be good for loyal customers as they buy new Tesla, they won't have the angst of losing their FSD. Come on Elon, give your Tesla fans a win. I think it would increase adoption for one.

 

[Yelobird]

today, I was tailgated by some asshat driving a MB. so close to me, I tried to give him a hint that this was - uhhh - not so bright. I braked a few times to give him the idea but he just would not get it. he insisted on tailgating me.

the PB is probably what will push me over the edge and sell this car before I was ready to. I'd rather have no automation than one that triggers and causes me to get rear-ended.

people do tailgate. therefore, drivers should have the ability to 100% defeat any auto braking that the car does.

I hope this gets escalated. tesla needs a punch in the face, legally, since they are out of control. 100% unacceptable to do this. we are NOT test subjects, dammit. we're just people trying to NOT get killed by some jerk merc driver behind you.

I have aeb disabled and auto lane departure disabled. I disabled pretty much all I could, in this STUPID car.

yes, stupid. I now think this is a full step backwards. looking to trade the car in very soon. I've had enough.

You recently admitted you purposely have Not updated your software in over 2 Years in the car so in my view NONE of your input or feedback has ANY value. Period! Go find a new car, you won’t be missed!

 

[Knightshade]

As one who got on the trial for 3 month when I took delivery of my MYP in December 2020, I see the value. I had originally had it in the cost of my car and ditched it when I heard we had the trial. That was when it was $10k. I think the subscription model is ok but the current pricing is too high. I think what makes it worse is, the cost for purchase limits it t to the car so if you switch cars, it is gone and worse yet, if you sell the car back to Tesla, when they sell it, they remove FSD!

Instead, they should allow FSD to stay with the account. In that case, would I shell out $10K, yes. It would also be good for loyal customers as they buy new Tesla, they won't have the angst of losing their FSD. Come on Elon, give your Tesla fans a win. I think it would increase adoption for one.

So long as Tesla continues to have more demand than they can meet with production there's no value (to Tesla) in letting FSD transfer with the owner.

You trading in your Tesla for a new one does not represent an additional vehicle sale compared to if you just keep yours, since there's a line of buyers already there for every car they can make.

 

[WhiteWi]

I think it is pretty simple if you have money to spend on FSD then the price tag is not a problem and if you already stretched yourself to buy Tesla then of cause it is expensive.

 

[SalisburySam]

If it a problem endemic to active cruise, and all brands have some variety of it (some far worse than Tesla as cited)- how, specifically, should Tesla "do better"?

So how can Tesla "do better" when it's not specifically a problem with Teslas?

One much-appreciated and much-requested though perhaps interim solution is dumb cruise control. Early Model 3’s had this if EAP was not optioned.

 

[WhiteWi]

One much-appreciated and much-requested though perhaps interim solution is dumb cruise control. Early Model 3’s had this if EAP was not optioned.

Or maybe Tesla should Sell cars with dumb cruise for all the whiners and charge them if they want to upgrade to AP. I bet that will fix the phantom breaking crying.

 

[RidgeRunner]

Are you FSD Beta drivers more stressed while using FSD? I'm having trouble justifying the extra $ until one can actually trust it to NOT do something dangerous. However, by that time it will cost Giga bucks more.
And...... Even with auto pilot on a severe curve on the highway at 60mph it appears to be headed into the divider until it finally, at the last moment, make a correction. Auto pilot seems to make step changes in curving roads, anyone notice that? Without autopilot on I can go around that curve without even thinking about it. IMHO, that is more autonomous than autopilot. BTW, After 6 months I still look forward to driving my MY.

 

[AndreP]

But as I pointed out earlier, every brand of car has the same kinds of warnings in the manual

I even quoted from several, with links to the full manual.

Definitely, and I think that’s because all of these systems have very similar capabilities under the hood but what differs greatly is the way each brand has marketed and deployed it.

I don’t think many people have any idea there are all these limitations on Autopilot and I think that is helped by the way this has all unfolded, from the names of the systems to the comments and promises made over the last six years and that are still being made today.

The perception of Autopilot is very different from a system that isn’t supposed to be used on two-lane roads, isn’t supposed to be used when approaching hills, isn't supposed to be used for this or that and a huge list of things and warnings… The fact that so many people apparently have no idea of these limitations seems like confirmation of the disconnect between marketing/perception and reality.

 

[OncomingStorm]

Are you FSD Beta drivers more stressed while using FSD? I'm having trouble justifying the extra $ until one can actually trust it to NOT do something dangerous. However, by that time it will cost Giga bucks more.
And...... Even with auto pilot on a severe curve on the highway at 60mph it appears to be headed into the divider until it finally, at the last moment, make a correction. Auto pilot seems to make step changes in curving roads, anyone notice that? Without autopilot on I can go around that curve without even thinking about it. IMHO, that is more autonomous than autopilot. BTW, After 6 months I still look forward to driving my MY.

FWIW when i first used AP it freaked the hell out of me lol, like you describe it seems to wait til the last min to do some things. however, in my experience after using it for a while, that was 100% the uncertainty of not knowing if it was actually going to do the thing or not and in most cases was acting perfectly appropriately. like the example of the turn on the highway, when you are driving you know you are going to turn and stay with the road, as you said you dont even think about it so its not even a thought in your mind. but when AP is in control you are constantly chomping at the bit for it to do it and even tho it did it at the exact right moment that anxiety of not knowing made the whole thing "feel" bad.

not saying AP couldn't be better anything can ALWAYS be better, but that one aspect, for me at least was simply a learning curve, once i was able to anticipate when the car was gonna do whatever it removed that fear / anxiety and the experience became 10000 times better lol

 

[Sporty]

Are you FSD Beta drivers more stressed while using FSD? I'm having trouble justifying the extra $ until one can actually trust it to NOT do something dangerous. However, by that time it will cost Giga bucks more.
And...... Even with auto pilot on a severe curve on the highway at 60mph it appears to be headed into the divider until it finally, at the last moment, make a correction. Auto pilot seems to make step changes in curving roads, anyone notice that? Without autopilot on I can go around that curve without even thinking about it. IMHO, that is more autonomous than autopilot. BTW, After 6 months I still look forward to driving my MY.

For fsd-beta absolutely.
For normal fsd ap I was not more stressed when using it. I didn’t really use the fsd part when I had it. Only AP. I used it in stop&go traffic. Just stay in the lane and follow. A lot less stressful then trying to do bumper to bumper driving and going no where. Also the speed was so slow you didn’t feel like a car mistake would kill anyone.

The other case was clear open roads. Again lots of space and it did a good job. Felt fine. The Nav part I would end up shutting off because it would make lane changes and the “cancel” button didn’t work. Do you shut if the Nav part and it stops trying to make lane changes.

The only fsd feature I found that I routinely used & liked was the “ding” when a stop light turned green. (Summon is scary to use. And I never got the hang of getting auto park to wake up. On the few times it did wake up it worked probably 90% of the times).

 

[2101Guy]

For fsd-beta absolutely.
For normal fsd ap I was not more stressed when using it. I didn’t really use the fsd part when I had it. Only AP. I used it in stop&go traffic. Just stay in the lane and follow. A lot less stressful then trying to do bumper to bumper driving and going no where. Also the speed was so slow you didn’t feel like a car mistake would kill anyone.

The other case was clear open roads. Again lots of space and it did a good job. Felt fine. The Nav part I would end up shutting off because it would make lane changes and the “cancel” button didn’t work. Do you shut if the Nav part and it stops trying to make lane changes.

The only fsd feature I found that I routinely used & liked was the “ding” when a stop light turned green. (Summon is scary to use. And I never got the hang of getting auto park to wake up. On the few times it did wake up it worked probably 90% of the times).

“Smart summon” curbed my wheel. I was parked with passenger side next to a curb. Summoned the car to me (broad daylight) and it did not pull forward far enough before it started turning right. Up and onto the curb went the passenger rear wheel.

But it’s going to be able to be summoned across the entire country soon.

Sure.

 

[Daniel in SD]

“Smart summon” curbed my wheel. I was parked with passenger side next to a curb. Summoned the car to me (broad daylight) and it did not pull forward far enough before it started turning right. Up and onto the curb went the passenger rear wheel.

But it’s going to be able to be summoned across the entire country soon.

Sure.

The manual clearly says not to use it near low objects such as "some curbs" (it doesn't say how high the curb needs to be).