Well, let's see....
AP doesn't text and drive.
AP doesn't tailgate.
AP doesn't pretend its a race car driver.
AP doesn't hit other cars changing lanes.
AP doesn't drink and drive.
AP doesn't fall asleep at the wheel.
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$12K for FSD is insane
- Thread starter bjrosen
- Start date
AP doesn't text and drive.
AP doesn't tailgate.
AP doesn't pretend its a race car driver.
AP doesn't hit other cars changing lanes.
AP doesn't drink and drive.
AP doesn't fall asleep at the wheel.
AP doesn't know to avoid being in other driver's blind spots.
AP doesn't avoid potholes.
AP doesn't switch lanes or pass a pickup truck dropping crap all over the road.
AP doesn't brake smoothly, it late brakes and phantom brakes randomly.
AP doesn't know if it is about to rain or snow and adjust stopping distances accordingly.
AP doesn't have the ability to hear the ambulance or firetruck and move as required.
Don't get me wrong, AP is a nice improvement but the driver and the AI tech still need to work together to improve safety. If I fall asleep at the wheel with AP enabled I am still gonna crash or potentially kill someone. Same goes for FSD.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Can you give some examples of where I can get a comparable, free, system from another brand?
Every system I've tried on other brands has been terrible and did far less, far less well. And usually they were pricy options on top of that.
Who said that AP relieves the driver of his responsibilities? You asked why AP would be safer than not using AP. There is no question that AP is not perfect. Nobody claims that it is an L5 system.
The point is that AP doesn't automatically make the car safer for the mentioned reasons. Tesla claims crash rate on AP is safer, but we know autopilot is used primarily on highways (which is already safer), so to compare that to overall crash rate which includes mixed city/highway driving is disingenuous.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
When I bought FSD in 2018, EM was claiming far more than L2. "Coast-to-coast without driver intervention." Silicon snake oil. Maybe I have to wait more years for the unfulfilled promises. I am guessing it will be decades before I am not worrying about driver intervention constantly.
AP, when used correctly, means human and machine are working together to become safer. I agree that comparing highway to mixed is not great, but the AP accident rate by itself is quite good. And it has been trending better consistently. 2021 saw a bigger % improvement than in past years.
Further, AP + active safety features scores better than just active safety features. This is the biggest indicator that AP improves safety.
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Tesla Daily recently did a deep dive into these metrics and had chart visualizations to make it really easy to understand.
Suburu makes a decent one. I drove my parents’ car for a few hundred miles with it and it was quite good. The Tesla version is better but Suburu’s was good enough. What I particularly liked was that the autosteer would automatically re-engage after a lane change once you get centered for a few seconds in the new lane.
Safety features would also be mixed driving, so again AP over safety features does not give an obvious conclusion. Maybe the only real conclusion is that safety features are safer than no safety features
Safety features would also be mixed driving, so again AP over safety features does not give an obvious conclusion. Maybe the only real conclusion is that safety features are safer than no safety features
why? for the metric "AP + safety features" (metric #1), the safety features part is also mixed driving, so that part would be consistent with the "No AP + safety features" (metric #2) and directly comparable. The difference between them would be AP. Actually if you look at "No AP + no safety features" (metric #3), the delta in safety between #2 and #3 is much smaller than the delta between #1 and #2.
I acknowledge that these 3 metrics aren't perfect either (people who tend to use highways more might use AP more, skewing metric 1 higher than metric 2), but like I said earlier, the absolute numbers for the AP metric looks good and it's consistently improving over time.
More importantly, there's no data that even implies that AP is less safe than manual driving, just a bunch of cherrypicked anecdotes of accidents, which is completely useless at attempting to draw a conclusion.
here's the chart with the 3 metrics:
Source:
It also depends on who is doing the driving. The accident rate for AP/FSD for the subset of persons who are dedicated and able to do that type of 'driving', including quickly taking over when AP/FSD requires, does not tell you what the rate would be for AP/FSD usage among the general population.
On the other hand, if and when FSD reaches a higher level of autonomy and reliability, and becomes adopted much more widely, I agree that driving safety for the general population would almost certainly improve - and probably massively. Humans don't drive all that well. Of course, FSD adoption by the general population would require the FSD price to go down considerably and also for there to be a societal culture shift in our approach to driving.
On the other hand, if and when FSD reaches a higher level of autonomy and reliability, and becomes adopted much more widely, I agree that driving safety for the general population would almost certainly improve - and probably massively. Humans don't drive all that well. Of course, FSD adoption by the general population would require the FSD price to go down considerably and also for there to be a societal culture shift in our approach to driving.
Agreed. to be clear, the metrics I posted above are for AP (not FSD beta), and is definitely a much larger data sample, which grows with each Tesla sold. And very encouragingly, as more and more "general" people start to own Teslas, we're seeing the AP metrics trend toward more safe, not less.
JustJohn
Member
Wide release does not imply that it functions. Get over yourself and stop trying to justify a purchase you made to other people.
Adaptive cruise systems have been in production for years without issue by virtually all automakers without phantom braking.
None of Tesla's automated driving systems work to a satisfactory level and certainly worse than everyone else's.
You're welcome to resort to the tired trope of telling me to buy a different brand if I'm unhappy with it.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Except that the data on AP being measurably safer than not is for all tesla owners using AP not this made-up-in-your-head group of "special" people who are EXTRA cautious.
Again- using AP requires less work than normal driving since the car is doing 2 of the 3 required tasks, and the human is free to focus solely on the third one that they'd still need to do ANYWAY if driving manually in addition to them doing the other ones.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, the fact there's billions of miles of recorded use, with a significantly better safety record than driving without it, does though.
This is an outright lie.
Other car makers have had massive recalls and lawsuits over unintended braking and other issues with adaptive cruise systems, including not just brake issues (and others, like unintended acceleration, etc) on their systems, far worse than Tesla. Just a very few examples:
U.S. probes 553,000 Nissan Rogue SUVs for unintended emergency braking
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has opened a preliminary investigation into 553,000 Nissan Rogue sport utility vehicles after reports of their automatic emergency braking systems engaging without warning or an obstruction, the agency said on Thursday...
www.reuters.com
Toyota recalls over 200,000 vehicles in China for non-compliant adaptive cruise control system
They involve 116,551 Corolla vehicles produced by Tianjin FAW Toyota from August 2019 to July 2021 and 109,034 Levin vehicles produced by GAC Toyota from May 2019 to July 2021.
cnevpost.com
Ford Recalls F-150s To Repair Cruise Control Radar
In yet another recall for the F-150, Ford has recalled the pickup to repair the cruise control radar module so that the vehicle's safety systems will work correctly.
www.torquenews.com
Dodge Jeep Recall: Adaptive Cruise Control Allows Unintended Acceleration
Dodge Jeep Recall P31 14V293000. The unintended continued acceleration may increase the risk of a crash.
repairpal.com
Alfa Recalls Adaptive Cruise Control
This recall involves 2017-2019 Alfa Romeo Giulia and 2018-2019 Stelvio vehicles. The adaptive cruise control (ACC) may not allow cancellation of the ACC in specific driving conditions...
www.autoserviceprofessional.com
Mazda3 Recalled for Sudden, Unexpected Emergency Braking
Consumer Reports shares details of the Mazda3 recall. More than 35,000 Mazda3 vehicles are being recalled because their automatic emergency braking (AEB) system could falsely activate.
www.consumerreports.org
Adaptive cruise and phantom braking
I love my Palisade except for how often it improperly detects a "phantom" car ahead in my lane, causing it to slow drastically when it doesn't need to. Typically there is a vehicle in the other lane and I suspect it somehow has to do with shadows and/or glare from the other vehicle in addition...
palisadeforums.org
The fact phantom braking is common to all adaptive cruise systems has been widely reported for years. Weird you missed it.
Tesla, in contrast, as had ONE recall ever, for this- and it was due to a faulty software update that was corrected like a day later with an OTA update.
Again this is an outright lie- Even CR, which tends to be quite anti-tesla, admitted the actual function of their system was superior to everyone else they tested, only putting Caddy for nebulous things like "driver engagement and monitoring" rather than the actual driving functions where Tesla was ahead in virtually ever measure of performance.
And Tesla being Tesla has since been able to significantly increase the driver monitoring capabilities via free OTA updates using the interior camera too--- While Cadillac has instead... stopped selling their system entirely blaming chip shortages.
GM Temporarily Abandons Its Super Cruise Self-Driving Feature
Good luck finding a car with Super Cruise.
www.reviewgeek.com
If you can't argue honestly you don't have a very good argument.
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This assumes that by having the car perform steps 1 and 2 that the driver will tend to be more focused on step 3. What if it has the opposite effect with some drivers? If the car is performing steps 1 and 2 then maybe the driver becomes less focused on step 3? Maybe the driver exhibits more bad behavior as a result of trusting the AP vs. being more engaged in steps 1 and 2?
We see videos of people hopping in the back seat while AP is on. We see folks trying to defeat the steering wheel nag. We see people more prone to fall asleep because they are not engaged in steps 1 and steps 2. Tesla is now starting to use the internal camera help overcome these behaviors. But enabling the internal camera brings up a whole other set of issues. Big brother is watching, etc. AI is tricky, like everything in life it has its pros and cons.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Then we'd see higher accident rates, not lower.
Unless the system is so good that the % of the time it saves you from an accident a human would've gotten into is significantly higher than the % of time "not paying attention" causes one-- in which case it's still objectively safer than human driving.
The camera data is processed in real time, and never leaves the car (this is explicitly pointed out when enabled- and hackers like Green have confirmed it's true)
The tinfoil hat types will whine about it, but there's no fact based reason to do so.
100% agree with the idea of "rent it for a month as a party trick." After renting it for a month I have no FOMO. I may rent it again in a year just to see what's changed.
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