After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[2101Guy]

Don’t poo-poo glass action lawsuits. I actually got a couple hundred bucks back in the day on my 2017 Model S because it took Tesla forever to get any A/P features working on AP2 hardware.

I am being facetious about not poo-pooing the class acuity lawsuit, I personally hate them, but Tesla has had to pay out once already for selling something “promising” and not delivering.

But because Elon didn’t use the words “pinky swear promise”, the f-bois say it didn’t count.

 

[gearchruncher]

I have all the receipts including screen shots!!

Share 'Em!

 

[boonedocks]

Share 'Em!

If someone wants to pay for a complete portfolio of all the order pages from 2017+ I’ll do that. Here are the basics from my 2017 Model S AP 2.0 order for kicks:

 

[bradtem]

I have all the receipts including screen shots!!

Yes, but did they tell you that you would get an actual full self driving system by a certain date? They did talk about "autosteer on city streets" by a certain date, and in spite of the "beta" they have not delivered that yet, though since autosteer is a driver assist product they could claim to deliver it once it's out of beta, just not a full self driving product. So I think people are entitled to refunds. I don't know what the lawyers get if they get you a refund. ie. if you paid $6K for FSD (the price was lower back then) and you don't want EAP, do you get a $6K refund or do the lawyers get $2K of that?

And those screen shots say "It is not possible to know when it will be available" so where's the fraud?

 

[boonedocks]

Yes, but did they tell you that you would get an actual full self driving system by a certain date? They did talk about "autosteer on city streets" by a certain date, and in spite of the "beta" they have not delivered that yet, though since autosteer is a driver assist product they could claim to deliver it once it's out of beta, just not a full self driving product. So I think people are entitled to refunds. I don't know what the lawyers get if they get you a refund. ie. if you paid $6K for FSD (the price was lower back then) and you don't want EAP, do you get a $6K refund or do the lawyers get $2K of that?

And those screen shots say "It is not possible to know when it will be available" so where's the fraud?

You mean I never got them….no date….no time….nothing!! That was 5 years + ago

 

[gearchruncher]

I don't know what the lawyers get if they get you a refund. ie. if you paid $6K for FSD (the price was lower back then) and you don't want EAP, do you get a $6K refund or do the lawyers get $2K of that?

Class actions work different.
In a class action, the judge decides damages for the class members.
Then, they look at how much work the lawyers did, and a reasonable hourly rate. This overall amount is sometimes taken out of damages, sometimes added on. It depends. But the advantage is that $5M in lawyer fees are split across hundreds of thousands of people, and you could never have sued for $50 with your own lawyer.
If a class shows up and says the lawyers cost $2K to recover $6K across 100K members, that's $200M and the judge will laugh them out of court.

 

[bradtem]

You mean I never got them….no date….no time….nothing!! That was 5 years + ago

Well, clearly the product is coming later than people were led to believe, though rarely actually promised. They always had that language about how they can't predict when. I think that means they should offer refunds to those who want them, and if they saw a real threat from lawsuits like this, they probably would offer the refunds, which they could work to assure people would not take mostly. With a refund on offer, the lawsuit would not have much to claim. They could argue somebody was going to buy a Bolt but got a Model X instead because it was going to have FSD any day? A hard sell.

 

[Dewg]

But because Elon didn’t use the words “pinky swear promise”, the f-bois say it didn’t count.

I know you're being facetious, but in court and in legal matters, words have very specific meanings. It's going to be interesting to see how specific language effects the outcome.

If you say to a police officer, when he pulls you over, "You're an a-hole", vs saying "I think you're an a-hole", there is a very different meaning legally. One is a declaratory statement while the other is an opinion.

"FSD will be solved by the end of this year" and "I think FSD will be solved by the end of this year" have different meanings legally.

Again, this is going to be an interesting court case.

 

[boonedocks]

Well, clearly the product is coming later than people were led to believe, though rarely actually promised. They always had that language about how they can't predict when. I think that means they should offer refunds to those who want them, and if they saw a real threat from lawsuits like this, they probably would offer the refunds, which they could work to assure people would not take mostly. With a refund on offer, the lawsuit would not have much to claim. They could argue somebody was going to buy a Bolt but got a Model X instead because it was going to have FSD any day? A hard sell.

That first line is PRICELESS!!!

I never even wanted a refund. What I asked for and didn’t get twice now was “just transfer it to my new order and remove it from my 2017 S….my 2019 S…..etc”.

 

[qdeathstar]

Here's a relevant news story today.

'Tesla Is Sued By Drivers Over Alleged False Autopilot, Full Self-Driving Claims' - Reuters News

Tesla is sued by drivers over alleged false Autopilot, Full Self-Driving claims

Tesla Inc was sued on Wednesday in a proposed class action accusing Elon Musk's electric car company of misleading the public by falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features.

www.reuters.com

Finally we will be able to put some silly debate to rest.


I wonder once california makes Elon change the name of Full Self Driving if he will change it to Not Full Self Driving ah la Not A Flame Thrower….

 

[qdeathstar]

If you say to a police officer, when he pulls you over, "You're an a-hole", vs saying "I think you're an a-hole", there is a very different meaning legally. One is a declaratory statement while the other is an opinion.

"

Eh… I feel like in both cases it gonna end up with you getting a face full of concrete; is Elon fixin to get a face full of concrete?

 

[Knightshade]

If you bought a 2016-2018 S or X, NoA, Auto Lane Change, Autopark, and Summon are part of EAP, not FSD.
Then, you didn't get traffic/stop light control until 2020, not "delivered with the purchase"
And now you have gotten nothing else unless you also buy a $2,250 MCU upgrade, and will never get anything.

The beta, currently, is not something anyone pays for

It's distributed to a small fraction of FSD owners for testing and development purposes- it's not promised as, nor part of, your FSD purchase at all

So the claim MCU1 owners are getting 'less' of the public sold product is factually untrue right now.

It's possible it will be true if wide release happens AND Tesla doesn't do the computer upgrade free... but given they did AP computer upgrades free (and even camera ones) previously that seems like a bet I don't love your chances of.



Currently the only explicit-in-the-sale promise Tesla has violated regarding FSD was the promise to post 3/19 buyers for about 18 months or so that city streets was coming by end of that year (and I've cited that as the one no-kidding-legit legal basis for any lawsuit to this point many times in the past)




Now- the lawsuit linked yesterday is really weird in that he did not buy FSD

He bought EAP. Which has been feature complete for years now and does everything originally promised during sale. (Except, arguably, the limited range of enhanced summon)

 

[hooty]

Yes, but did they tell you that you would get an actual full self driving system by a certain date? They did talk about "autosteer on city streets" by a certain date, and in spite of the "beta" they have not delivered that yet, though since autosteer is a driver assist product they could claim to deliver it once it's out of beta, just not a full self driving product. So I think people are entitled to refunds. I don't know what the lawyers get if they get you a refund. ie. if you paid $6K for FSD (the price was lower back then) and you don't want EAP, do you get a $6K refund or do the lawyers get $2K of that?

And those screen shots say "It is not possible to know when it will be available" so where's the fraud?

Legally, misleading, deceptive & unconscionable conduct means that whether or not a date was stated is irrelevant

 

[Knightshade]

Legally, misleading, deceptive & unconscionable conduct means that whether or not a date was stated is irrelevant

Can you cite any actual evidence of such conduct?

(not the "ceo said he guessed they would be done by X and weren't" tweets- but legally actionable evidence)

 

[boonedocks]

Can you cite any actual evidence of such conduct?

(not the "ceo said he guessed they would be done by X and weren't" tweets- but legally actionable evidence)

If it is actually carried to a court it won't be left up to the members of TMC to decide that...It will be a judge or jury....I personally feel it CAN become a real problem for Tesla .

 

[Knightshade]

If it is actually carried to a court it won't be left up to the members of TMC to decide that...It will be a judge or jury....I personally feel it CAN become a real problem for Tesla .

Some people "feel" the earth is flat too.

It's their lack of evidence that's the problem- hence why I asked if they had any.

The guy who actually filed the suit seems even worse off given the only thing he actually bought was EAP, and he got that in full years ago... which makes the fact he's asking for class action status to cover an entirely different products buyers- FSD- extra weird.

Could the ambulance chaser behind the idea for the suit not find any actual FSD buyer willing to sue or something and had to settle for this dude?

 

[ATPMSD]

Keep in mind that the only people who actually benefit from Class Action suits are the lawyers who walk away with six-figure fees while the members of the Class typically get what amounts to de minimis compensation.

 

[2101Guy]

The lawsuit calls out Tesla’s features terminology, including the name “Autopilot,” as well as Elon Musk’s public statements and tweets regarding the perpetually unfinished Full Self-Driving system. It specifically mentions Musk’s claim that an autonomous US cross-country trip will be performed by 2018, and his 2019 claims about putting 1 million robotaxis on the road, saying, “A year from now, we’ll have over a million cars with full self-driving, software... everything.”

 

[2101Guy]

The filing claims Tesla and Musk “deceived and misled consumers regarding the current abilities of its ADAS [advanced driver-assistance system] technology and by representing that it was perpetually on the cusp of perfecting that technology and finally fulfilling its promise of producing a fully self-driving car,” and that “contrary to Tesla’s repeated promises that it would have a fully self-driving car within months or a year, Tesla has never been remotely close to achieving that goal.”

 

[heavyD]

Keep in mind that the only people who actually benefit from Class Action suits are the lawyers who walk away with six-figure fees while the members of the Class typically get what amounts to de minimis compensation.

This is not true. Consumers ultimately benefit as companies are held accountable for their actions. If there's no accountability then companies can just ignore consumer complaints forever.