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Australia\NZ Electric Vehicle Charging standards (Ban the J1772?)

Discussion in 'Australia & New Zealand' started by meloccom, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

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    I have become increasingly concerned about the mixed EV charging standards in Australia.
    Initially we inherited the J1772 standard as the only production EV cars available, the Leaf, iMiev and Volt all brought with them US or Japanese charging standards as we had none of our own. As Chargepoint is a US based company many of the chargers they supplied were equipped with J1772 plugs. Both the USA and Japan have 110V electrical systems and three phase home connections are virtually non existent, whilst our electrical system more closely reflects European standards just with our own plugs and sockets.
    More recently we learn the BMW I3 and i8 have the J1772 standard even though in their home and other European markets they use the Mennekes Type 2 (IEC62196) plug. If we do nothing now, Australia will end up with a DC fast charging network based on the J1772 system rather than the Type 2 system, in particular when the new IEC Combined Charging System starts to roll out here, I fear Tesla owners will be locked out as its unlikely Tesla will make a specific adapter for our market. They may make a CCS (J1772) to USA Tesla adapter and a CCS (Type 2) to Type 2 adapter but they won't make a CCS (J1772) to Type 2 just for Australia and New Zealand alone.

    Firstly I want to know from those with the knowledge, if my fears are valid or unfounded, so I have started this thread in the hope that we can all learn more about it. Specifically I would like to know:
    - Is anything I said above wrong?
    - Does the J1772 standard support three phase charging?
    - Why has BMW decided to go with J1772 is this an Australian Design Regulation or just a guess on BMW's part?
    - What plug has Mercedes chosen for the C350e?
    - What else have I missed?

    Secondly, now that the majority of EV's on Australian roads are the Tesla Model S, fitted with Type 2 connectors, a Type 2 standard and I would like to write to regulators such as The Hon Darren Chester MP but I lack the understanding and knowledge to make a reasoned argument.

    Is there anyone in the Australian forum that can help?
    All contributions welcome.
     
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  2. raynewman

    raynewman Member

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    I think the iMev has a Mennekes type 2 socket.

    Typically the J1772 is limited to 30 AMPS which is a bit slow for the modern EV.
     
  3. MDK

    MDK Aussie Member

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    No I think you're right on the money.

    No it doesn't, there aren't enough pins. The standard allows for up to 80A (20kW) but I doubt we'll see 80A single phase connections here, the power companies won't like it and 32A 3phase is better for everyone.

    I suspect they looked at the charging stations already installed (along with the Leaf/i-MiEV/Volt already in Australia) and decided J1772 was the de facto standard.

    The good news is that the New Zealand Transport Agency has seen the light AND the better news is that apparently BMW has agreed to replace the charge ports on all i3s, and charge.net.nz agreed to replace all the CCS connectors on their Tritium fast chargers.

    If NZ can do it, so can we!

    Unfortunately the i-MiEV has J1772 (and CHAdeMO)
     
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  4. Chuq

    Chuq Active Member

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    I thought I was 100% sure of this but happy to be corrected on any of the following:

    - DC fast charging uses either Chademo or CCS connectors - J1772 is irrelevant

    - Chademo is dominant in Japan and CCS is dominant in continental Europe. As a result vehicles sold here have a mixture with a bias towards Chademo.

    - Most DC fast chargers going in will be likely to be Tritium Veefils which have both types of DC fast charge connectors. (RAC WA chargers also have both).
     
  5. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

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    It still makes blinding sense for there to be a single standard, and one which is versatile in terms of single or 3 phase AC as well as D.C. Within the one compact plug makes total logical sense, which may be why pollys wont go for it.
    I agree, we need to lobby now and hard, before those vaporware cars come on the market.
     
  6. GregA

    GregA Member

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    Ahh... the NZTA looks to have some information wrong too.

    DC powered charging ... currently capable of providing charging at a rate of up to 350kW/hour (a Nissan Leaf would be charged to 80 percent full in around 20 minutes)

    AC powered charging ... tend to provide drivers with a charging rate of 20-40kW/hour (a Nissan Leaf would be fully charged within eight hours)
    What actual stats are they misinterpreting for the stuff up here? If AC powered charging was 20kW it'd fill a Leaf a bit quicker than the 8 hour estimate... And that DC charge is the next dream for chargers.
     
  7. MDK

    MDK Aussie Member

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    There are two kinds of CCS connectors. CCS basically means the car has two large pins below their "standard" socket which provide the DC connection to the battery while using the standard signalling pins of the AC socket above it. They are also known as "Combo" connectors because they combine AC and DC in one large socket.

    That means AU supplied i3s (and AU installed fast chargers) have a "type 1" CCS connector

    On the image below the left is a type 1 CCS vehicle inlet, on the right is a type 2 CCS vehicle inlet.

    CCS-vehicle.png

    And the corresponding plugs (type 1 CCS, type 2 CCS and CHAdeMO)

    CCS-plug.png


    Also, my understanding is that most AU delivered i3s (outside of WA) don't have fast charging capability, they only have a j1772 socket because fast charging is a ~$1000 option, and the BMW salesmen talk people out of it because there's "no fast chargers"

    On the other hand most WA delivered ones are delivered with fast charging because of the RAC Electric Highway.

    That means there's only a small number of vehicles that would need to be retrofitted. Those with only AC charging capability can easily charge from a type 2 (Mennekes) charging station with a simple adapter cable.

    According to VFACTS there are 30 i3s in WA and 216 in the rest of the country (as of 31 Aug 2016)
     
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  8. MDK

    MDK Aussie Member

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    Other than the poor choice of units (charge rates are typically specified in kW and battery capacity/energy stored or consumed in kWh) they appear to have pulled facts from several sources.

    AC charging relies on the vehicle's onboard charger, and AU delivered Leafs only have 3.6kW chargers, so even if you used an adapter to plug them into the Fast AC socket on the RAC Electric Highway chargers (63A 3phase, or 45kW) they won't charge any faster than on a 15A power point.

    And although there's talk of up to 500kW fast chargers I don't think there are currently any vehicles that can charge at that rate, except maybe some passenger buses?
     
  9. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

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    So how do we lobby Government and Industry to ensure that we follow New Zealand's example and align with European charging standards. Is this something the AEVA is doing, would this automatically happen because we share the same wiring standards?
    BMW, Mercedes and others should be adopting Type 2 as the number of Tesla destination chargers would likely outnumber the number of J1772 charge points by now I would think.
    Ok, so what I am going to do over the next week or so is:
    Call the office of the Hon Darren Chester MP Federal minister of Infrastructure
    Call Mercedes Benz Australia and try and find out how the C350e PHEV will be specified
    Call Mitchell Baxter and see if there is anything Tesla owners can do to help Tesla lobby for a Type 2 standard.
    I'll post my progress or otherwise here.
    I think this is an important issue that we should pursue actively so I asked the Aus\NZ moderator to make this a sticky and he agreed. ;)
     
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  10. RichardMcN

    RichardMcN Member

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    I'll post the Mercedes Benz C350e info hopefully later today. My father has test driven and is (probably) buying one and the sales guy thinks Type 2 but is getting back to me with the spec and a photo for good measure.
     
  11. ggr

    ggr Roadster R80 537, SigS P85 29

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    You have your units mixed up. kW is the power being delivered at any instant. kWh is the energy delivered. 1kW, delivered for an hour, gives your battery 1kWh of energy.
     
  12. Zoltrix77

    Zoltrix77 Member

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    Yes, I completely agree with you and its also something that has rattled my cage for quite sometime.

    I can only agree with you that the European manufacturers involved have deployed J1772 because its the only charge connector you will find currently on a public charge station in Australia, even though it is clearly incorrect for our needs and there are so few deployed, that it would have been better to supply an adaptor cable to their customers. I mean, wether you agree with it or not, if that had gone the Type-2 path, their customers would have been able to bum a charge off Tesla Destination chargers for free with no adaptor required! Some of their thinking may have involved the fact that none of the offending vehicles support 3-phase charging anyway, but that is a rather poor excuse.

    Its also worth noting that Tesla themselves and reduced the 3-phase charging capabilities of the updated Model S and Model X from 22kW to 16kW, perhaps indicating that they believe nearly all future fast charging will be DCFC and "Mid Speed" AC charging will reduce in need. I'm not a believer in that theory, especially not in a country with great distances and sparse populations such as Australia, I want all the options possible.

    BTW You can add the Audi A3 e-Tron and Porsche Cayenne PHEV to the list of Australian J1772 offenders also. Perhaps Porsche Australia and Audi Australia also need a polite email.

    The best result would be for the Type 2 socket type to be part of the Australian Design Rules.

    Another manufacturer that might be worth investigating is Nissan, as my belief is that the new Leaf will have Type 2 CCS when released in Europe, and if it is released here, I hope that they can be convinced to go Type-2 also.

    On the positive side, Tesla is the number 1 EV in the country, they have gone the correct route, and have probably deployed the most Level 2 Type 2 chargers. I am also hoping that Tesla chooses to release the Model 3 and perhaps future Model X/S vehicles with a Type 2 CCS socket in Europe. This will allow the car to charge at Type 2 AC 1ph, Type 2 AC 3ph, Type 2 DCFC and Superchargers with no adaptors required. The only adaptor you would require is for CHAdeMO which must surely be a dying standard long term outside of Japan.

    Perhaps hassling Tesla to push the Australian Government on officially adopting type-2 would be the go?

    Adam.
     
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  13. MDK

    MDK Aussie Member

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    Another massive step in the right direction is that the Ergon Electric Highway (Cairns to Toowoomba) will use Type 2 CCS
     
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  14. RichardMcN

    RichardMcN Member

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    Here's an email (23/2/16) with Chargepoint's point of view, probably explaining why they are still relentlessly rolling out J1772's (including a double one at McDonald's Dural in the last month) ...

    (the highlighting is mine)

    Hi Richard,

    Thanks for the enquiry. ChargePoint has been operating in Australia since 2009 supplying a range of charging stations and network services for the purposes of recharging electric vehicles. Since our initial launch, we have adopted the SAEJ1772 charging standard for all our Level 2 charging stations. While this standard has not been endorsed by all the OEM vehicle manufacturers in the Australian market, it has certainly been adopted by the vast majority (58 out of 60) and hence why ChargePoint has elected to adopt this charging standard. Our Level 2 Stations which come in single and dual port configuration have the charging connector attached to the unit which drivers unlock and plug into their vehicle.

    Unfortunately Tesla has elected to import vehicles into Australia which are not compatible with the SAEJ1772 charging standard. Instead, they have imported vehicles directly from their European production line which utilise the IEC 62196-2 Type 2 connector (the European standard). In order for the Tesla Model S to utilise our stations, a charging adapter is required. ChargePoint is aware of a number of Tesla owners who have acquired and utilise adaptors on our stations. If you would like additional information on such a product, I would suggest contacting Tesla directly as I understand they can make one available to you. In the meantime, feel free to sign up for a free ChargePoint Driver account. Once you are up and running, you can access all our public charging stations, and keep track of all your charging through our cloud based portal. We also have a smart phone App available so you can remotely control stations and track energy in real-time/

    If you require any further information, please feel free to get back in touch.

    Kind regards,

    The ChargePoint Team
     
  15. WhiteStar

    WhiteStar Member

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    The Nationals have already hassled the Australian Government, resulting in this standard ->

    [​IMG]

    Meanwhile the more scientifically minded progressives are lobbying hard to adopt this one ->

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. TesAus

    TesAus Member

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    I think key to any lobbying effort would be to get the motoring associations (NRMA etc) interested? They purport to represent the interests of drivers and getting stuck with a historical standard rather than setting a higher standard now would seem to be a good approach for the bigger picture, particularly before all of the "Tesla beaters" start arriving from other manufacturers before the end of the decade?

    I think the NZ example is a really good "local" line l to push.
     
  17. RichardMcN

    RichardMcN Member

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    Bad news on the MB C350e front ...

    IMG_5098.jpg

    IMG_5097.jpg

    I hate to make the observation, but it is a no brainer for MB, BMW and others to use J1772 on single phase city-based PHEV's with a small electric range.

    On Plugshare there are heaps of J1772's in Sydney and Melb, and reasonable numbers in other cities.

    In contrast, there are ZERO Type 2 outlets in Sydney and Adelaide. Melbourne's few Type 2's are disabled by the Betterplace problem, and Brisbane has only three Type 2's. Perth alone has 14 Type 2's which is still only half the number of J1772's there.

    There are definitely 2 sides to this argument and it will not be a push over for the Type 2 proponents (of which I am one).

    Why not start with AEVA? It has more legitimacy than a single sided push. At the last NSW AEVA meeting I was the only Tesla driver who had attended for quite a few months. Let's get a bit involved with the EV community !
     
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  18. jonescg

    jonescg New Member

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    All good points above. But in response to the initial post's rhetorical question - ban the J1772 - it won't be going away any time soon and there's nothing legislators can do about it.
    Type-2 is the far superior charge port for Australia, and I am confident it will eventually become the standard shortly. As soon as Teslas start clogging our roads, the shift to Mennekes connectors will be swift. We must remember though, that we cannot exclude a system in legislation (we signed free trade agreements preventing us from doing that, otherwise we'd ban Coca-Cola) but we can favour a particular standard in publicly funded infrastructure roll-outs. The Japanese car makers are pushing very hard to keep J1772, and really, an adaptor is easy enough to carry around. But the smart money is on type 2.
     
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  19. LGGD

    LGGD Active Member

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    Not just Porsche Cayenne PHEV, also Porsche Panamera PHEV. They are both J1772.
     
  20. raynewman

    raynewman Member

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    I really wouldn't mind if we had the same size adaptor that Tesla provide in the US.
     
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