Autopilot: Crashed at 40mph

[S4WRXTTCS]

I don't understand how anyone ends up in a situation where it's 'too late to stop'. When TACC doesn't react faster than I would, I take care of business myself. I don't sit around waiting to see if TACC is going to decide to brake.

Are you reading a book instead of watching the road?

I've driven well over 10K miles in TACC mode without this ever happening, but I tend to use a setting of 5 for TACC on fast freeways. I'll lower it to 3 in stop and go situations. Part of my reason for such a high setting is to give myself time to react in case the TACC does something stupid. The lower it is the less time I have to react.

The problem is in a place like California (where it happened) people drive practically on top of each other going 80+ mph. You simple can't use a TACC setting of 5. I tried to when I was traveling in Cali, and I swear it annoyed people even when I was in the middle or right lane.

The other thing I might do differently is I tend to take over when I feel the situation warrants it. Like when traffic is coming to a standstill ahead. I treat TACC as a child that I'm overseeing.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

One other thing I think Tesla should add is a warning for stopped traffic ahead when warranted (on Freeways/Highways). Where the warning is maybe a half a mile or mile away from where the stopped traffic is.

Right now I do get this warning by looking at Waze/Googlemaps on the center screen. but, I'm not always going to be paying attention to that.

Sure I know that data might not be entirely correct by the time you get there, but most of the time I imagine it would prove as an effective warning.

 

[Cosmacelf]

The warning chime the car gives when it turns off AP is not loud enough, especially when driving on the freeway. The noise can easily be obscured by other freeway noises, or internal car noises. This is a design flaw with safety implications. Tesla really should address this with a software update.

 

[EV-lutioin]

The good news is the car looks pretty good for a 40 mph collision, the driver is lucky she was in a Model S.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I'm curious about what people would rather have when TACC was disabled (by braking)

1.) A louder sound/voice?
2.) The TACC to remain on in a half-on mode where it still would slow down when the car in front slowed down. It wouldn't accelerate, but at least it wouldn't scare you by not slowing down.
3.) Change the IC display to the pre-autopilot display (no toy car). That way it clearly shows the car is in a different mode of operation and that TACC is off.

 

[rowdy]

3.) Change the IC display to the pre-autopilot display (no toy car). That way it clearly shows the car is in a different mode of operation and that TACC is off.

This is actually a pretty good idea. I think it'd also be good to do a high contrast flash of the screen when autopilot disengages so it draws your attention if you are looking ahead at the road.

 

[sorka]

What it boils down to is is AP aside the AEB is just not as good as other systems on the market. My coworker was in his new infiniti the other day and admitted he had been texted and looked down. He was going 40 MPH and the car braked to a complete 100% stop to avoid rear ending another stopped car all without him ever pressing the brake.

My collision warning fires frequently but never starts to brake. I'm sure it would eventually to reduce the impact but why not start braking as soon as the warning goes off. I have it set to early and each time it would have been warranted to start auto braking. Surely the processor and software is powerful enough to calculate, with a margin/buffer, when it has to start braking and how much to completely avoid hitting stopped car.

 

[larmor]

What it boils down to is is AP aside the AEB is just not as good as other systems on the market. My coworker was in his new infiniti the other day and admitted he had been texted and looked down. He was going 40 MPH and the car braked to a complete 100% stop to avoid rear ending another stopped car all without him ever pressing the brake.

My collision warning fires frequently but never starts to brake. I'm sure it would eventually to reduce the impact but why not start braking as soon as the warning goes off. I have it set to early and each time it would have been warranted to start auto braking. Surely the processor and software is powerful enough to calculate, with a margin/buffer, when it has to start braking and how much to completely avoid hitting stopped car.

Just saw a tv ad for a nissan sentra with emergency braking. Not sure why tacc or ap has to be enabled...

 

[sorka]

Just saw a tv ad for a nissan sentra with emergency braking. Not sure why tacc or ap has to be enabled...

TACC doesn't have to be enabled for AEB but AEB just doesn't brake soon enough it seems.

 

[Cosmacelf]

What it boils down to is is AP aside the AEB is just not as good as other systems on the market. My coworker was in his new infiniti the other day and admitted he had been texted and looked down. He was going 40 MPH and the car braked to a complete 100% stop to avoid rear ending another stopped car all without him ever pressing the brake.

My collision warning fires frequently but never starts to brake. I'm sure it would eventually to reduce the impact but why not start braking as soon as the warning goes off. I have it set to early and each time it would have been warranted to start auto braking. Surely the processor and software is powerful enough to calculate, with a margin/buffer, when it has to start braking and how much to completely avoid hitting stopped car.

Huh? When AP is enabled, the Tesla AP very much does, smoothly, brake to a complete stop. Your co worker is talking about something else. He is talking about emergency braking. His system is a last second thing that brakes hard to avoid a collision. For some reason, Tesla's emergency braking system does not usually stop in time, it just reduces impact. I do not know why. But Tesla AP will indeed come to a complete stop if needed.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I'm curious about what people would rather have when TACC was disabled (by braking)

1.) A louder sound/voice?
2.) The TACC to remain on in a half-on mode where it still would slow down when the car in front slowed down. It wouldn't accelerate, but at least it wouldn't scare you by not slowing down.
3.) Change the IC display to the pre-autopilot display (no toy car). That way it clearly shows the car is in a different mode of operation and that TACC is off.

First, TACC and auto lane steering (aka autopilot) can be disabled by much more than driver braking. You could grab the steering wheel too forcefully, or the AP can randomly disengage all by itself (usually if it senses it is about to crash into a tree, thanks AP!). I think the AP disengage should be VERY obvious. A much louder bong or noise or voice PLUS FLASHING the IC display (and maybe main display) for a second or two.

Maybe also the system would ask you to click on the main display to acknowledge that AP switched off, and it you don't acknowledge (by clicking the main display, or by hitting the AP stalk), then it'll flash and audible again in 5 seconds.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Maybe also the system would ask you to click on the main display to acknowledge that AP switched off, and it you don't acknowledge (by clicking the main display, or by hitting the AP stalk), then it'll flash and audible again in 5 seconds.

This is where a HUD would be useful.

If on AP, HUD off. If not on AP, HUD on.

So as we're zoning along with AP, enjoying the view, as AP goes off... a sudden chime, followed by a HUD display (speed, etc...) would hopefully make it obvious to everyone that the AP is off.

 

[Tam]

...Tesla's emergency braking system does not usually stop in time, it just reduces impact...

That is how it is designed to do.

To conform to NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) Emergency Braking system standard, you must fulfill its minimum requirement:

"Automatic emergency braking (AEB) systems detect an impending forward crash with another vehicle in time to avoid or mitigate the crash."

Tesla chooses to "mitigate the crash," or brake to slow down in order to soften the blow but NOT to "avoid" an unavoidable collision.

 

[Az_Rael]

Just so everyone is on the same page, the AEB system currently employed by Tesla is completely disabled as soon as you touch the brakes. That is documented in the release notes.

Automatic Emergency Braking Automatic Emergency Braking — a new Collision Avoidance Assist feature — is designed to automatically engage the brakes to reduce the impact of an unavoidable frontal collision. Automatic Emergency Braking will stop applying the brakes when you press the accelerator pedal, press the brake pedal, or sharply turn the steering wheel. Automatic Emergency Braking is enabled by default. You can temporarily disable this feature via the AUTOMATIC EMERGENCY BRAKING setting in Controls > Settings > Driver Assistance > COLLISION AVOIDANCE ASSIST. Automatic Emergency Braking will re-enable when you next drive. Note: Automatic Emergency Braking operates when you are driving at speeds between 5 mph (8 km/h) and 85 mph (140 km/h).


Tesla's system is missing a feature many other manufacturers have called dynamic braking support. THAT the the feature that will brake harder to avoid a collision when you have already applied the brakes manually, which several people here are assuming happened. She was completely on her own as soon as she tapped the brakes, no AEB functions anymore. I doubt many owners fully grasp that since it is a more common feature on other cars.

And, as I posted in the other thread, if you are interested, the NHTSA is currently proposing adding these systems to their 5 star rating tests: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-12-16/pdf/2015-31323.pdf Hopefully Teslas system will be more capable when this testing actually starts.

 

[Pruitt]

I suggest that, whenever Autosteering or TACC is disengaged for any reason, the sound system mutes, a loud but brief noise similar to the newer commercial building fire alarms sounds, and the entire dash displays, in large letters, "Autosteering [or "TACC"] Disengaged" for a couple of seconds. Or something like that. Thee really isn't a strong enough alert right now.

 

[rcarpen22]

This has been an interesting thread. Tesla stated that AP was not engaged at the time of the collision. People are assuming that the driver had inadvertently disengaged it prior to the incident. However, twice in the last week, I've had my car (on interstate highways) completely fail to pick up a slower moving car in front of me. One of them was a tractor trailer that moved into my lane. My car completely failed to notice it and was barreling toward it full speed. I slammed on brakes and changed lanes to avoid it. AP was engaged until I hit the brakes. Had I applied the brakes too late and hit the back of the truck, technically AP would have been disengaged at the time of the collision, but that doesn't mean that it performed as it should have. That said, it is beta software and the driver should not hesitate when the situation calls for taking over control from AP.

 

[thegruf]

recapping -
AP was not engaged so this itechnology is irrelevant in this instance except that the driver thought it was engaged.
AEB would have been expected to operate but seems not to have done so - most likely the driver had/was braking

For me this raises a few issues:

Some driver appear not to understand the difference between AP and AEB.
This is concerning that people are using 2+tonnes of technology at 50+mph without understanding it.
Should (not just Tesla) manufacturers/dealers be required to provide basic training of new technology to owners prior to delivery of the vehicle.

Why did the driver think they were on AP when they were not?
Personally I find it very clear but clearly some drivers do not or can get confused.on occasion.
Maybe Tesla can review driver information when AP is on/off/(dis)engaged and make this even clearer.

AEB disables if the brake is pressed.
Makes sense - but how long does it take to re-enable?
I understand Tesla choosing not to make AEB halt the car - a misfire of the sensors resulting in an unexpectedly stationary car can be highly dangerous. However how about if AEB situation is detected and the driver presses the brake but not sufficiently to avoid collision and audible alarm sounds alterting the sriver even if braking is not automatic.

Maybe Tesla should compel drivers to RTFM by acknowledging each page of the relevant release notes when new features are made available.


my 2c

 

[zambono]

I don't understand how anyone ends up in a situation where it's 'too late to stop'. When TACC doesn't react faster than I would, I take care of business myself. I don't sit around waiting to see if TACC is going to decide to brake.

Are you reading a book instead of watching the road?

They are doing anything but driving or paying attention to the road. Imagine when they encounter a truck tire, garbage, or anything on the road and autopilot just plows right through. They will try to blame tesla as well and there will be 100 more idiotic news articles.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

First, TACC and auto lane steering (aka autopilot) can be disabled by much more than driver braking. You could grab the steering wheel too forcefully, or the AP can randomly disengage all by itself (usually if it senses it is about to crash into a tree, thanks AP!). I think the AP disengage should be VERY obvious. A much louder bong or noise or voice PLUS FLASHING the IC display (and maybe main display) for a second or two.

Maybe also the system would ask you to click on the main display to acknowledge that AP switched off, and it you don't acknowledge (by clicking the main display, or by hitting the AP stalk), then it'll flash and audible again in 5 seconds.

Do you realize what you are suggesting? On my 60 mile commute to work, on mixed limited access, two lane, and city streets, I probably engage/disengage AP 20-30 times. Do you really expect someone is going to acknowledge each of these state changes?

Also, the AP never, in my experience disengages, without driver input. Even in the "take over immediately" scenario, AP continues to steer. The take over alert takes over the entire 17" display, along with significant aural warnings. So, I think what you are asking for is already in place.

 

[SDRick]

Until AP and AEB aspects are improved, it is much like a fancy (and potentially dangerous) novelty. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed my time driving California freeways in AP mode. Even though I wrongly assumed that emergency braking would avoid rear ending someone, as situations warranted it, my foot was always hovering just above the brake pedal.

It is unfortunate that these advanced sensor driven electronics are still unable to avoid running into and hitting stationary objects whether or not autopilot is engaged.