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AutoPilot speed restrictions...what do you think

Discussion in 'Model S' started by boonedocks, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. number12

    number12 Supporting Member

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    Anyone know someone that can manufacture a 89 MPH road sign that is attached to a long selfie stick? I have an idea.
     
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  2. DadoP90DL

    DadoP90DL Member

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    This is a big deal. I am getting honked at, cursed at sometimes by just having the autopilot on with 5mph over the speed limit. :( people are so impatient. This will make the situation worse. Very unsafe. I won't be able to use it anymore except on freeway.
     
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  3. houstonian

    houstonian ಠ_ಠ

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    Greetings All - no particular insight beyond what I read on the internet and in-between the lines.

    Seems to me the Mobile Eye breakup forced Tesla's hand. Not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination but guess what we call Auto Pilot 2.0 is something closer to AP 2.5 from Tesla's perspective.

    Guessing Tesla originally planned their 2nd generation of AP with ME and their third gen to be either ME or in-house, depending on circumstances. When Tesla lost the ability to have a 2nd gen AP supported by ME due to their falling out, they pushed (read: rushed) out their still not yet fully developed 3'rd gen as AP 2.0.

    BUT
    as they did so without the intermediary step of the originally-planned-but-now-discarded-AP-2.0, they had to guess as to what hardware FSD required and rolled out what was suppose to be 3.0 as 2.0. The upside being a material increase in theoretical capability - increased processing power, increased cameras, better ultrasonics, etc. - but at the expense of common sense knowledge the "original" 2.0 system would have offered...e.g. spray cleaning for cameras, different positions for camera, other sensors to cover weaker spots, rear radar, and so on.

    No doubt the current 2.0 sensor suite can support FSD in good conditions IMHO, but I do question the extent of the permissible environments it will be able to operate in. Much akin to the debate of this thread with Tesla prohibiting/limiting/impairing/etc. AP 1.0 outside an environment they feel it can operate safely in, I suspect 2.0 EAP and FSD will likewise be limited in terms of the environment. Just as Tesla seeks to discourage using AP 1.0 outside a divided highway by limiting the speed, I'd guess you'd also see EAP/FSD limited where it is weak...e.g. visibility impaired by [ x ]%, FSD won't operate over the speed limit and/or on roads it has not driven before, with no lead car to track - you get the idea.

    I would also guess each new iteration of AP will build of the weakness of the prior version reducing the limits where Tesla allows -or at least does not materially restrict- its operation. Again, if Tesla had their originally planned 2.0 step I suspect their 3.0 hardware suit, currently marketed as AP 2.0 for $8k, would be different...hence why I refer to it as 2.5; better than what would have otherwise been 2.0 but not what 3.0 would have been with "natural" development.

    As to the speed reductions - Tesla believes it's not safe to use AP 1.0 on non-divided highways. Don't think they've ever said this is not the case (?). The points @BerTX makes - as a current driver with 1.0 and drawing on 1st hand experience speak loudly to me to the limitations of 1.0 (and in full disclosure, I am awaiting delivery of my first Tesla a S60 with EAP/FSD already enabled, so obviously I bet it will work to a level to justify the investment) and if it's not safe, Tesla needs to take whatever reasonable steps are necessary to protect their customers and themselves. If limiting AP 1.0 to the speed limit is it, so be it. At least they still let it be activated outside a divided highway. <shrug>
     
  4. kavyboy

    kavyboy Member

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    #104 kavyboy, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
    Ugh. The discussion just goes round and round. There's nothing in the new speed and lockout restrictions that increases safety. There just isn't. I don't even know how that point could be argued. It's easily the weakest attempt at justification. (I'll except the nags. At least a safety case can be made there.)
    So why is it safer for AP to override my judgement about what a safe speed is? What problem does it solve? Set me straight.
    I'm not being negative or whiney or whatever. I am really trying to understand.
     
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  5. Altes

    Altes Member

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    Don't worry, not expecting it anytime soon (checks tesla app every night ;0) )
     
  6. dflipse

    dflipse Member

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    I have a commute of 4 lane, undivided but well marked and predictable traffic. I've found that Autopilot can safely handle the trip, but there are stretches where the flow of traffic exceeds 5mph over the speed limit. I can keep up with traffic by pressing the accelerator a bit. Autopilot stays on and does its thing but you can drive as fast as you want or need to.

    I'm installing the new update now. I'll be annoyed if it breaks that behavior, but otherwise see no big deal.

    I don't actually hit the forums much and had no idea there was any significant discontent with Autopilot. Mine does what it's supposed to do in the areas where they say it'll work, and provides a good degree of assistance in a range of other situations (like the one we're talking about here). Interesting hearing a range of opinions.
     
  7. kavyboy

    kavyboy Member

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    You may be annoyed. I believe the steering wheel nag frequency goes to 10 or 15 seconds while you push the speed above the speed limit.
     
  8. VOTS01

    VOTS01 Member

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    The problem in Melbourne Au is that Telsa almost always misreads the dynamic speed signs (we have a lot of LED speed signs that are remotely controlled and change according to the time of the day). It will often misread 80 as 60. This would make AP very unreliable and unsafe.

    Hopefully they improve speed sign recognition before aligning AP speed to speed signs.
     
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  9. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    #109 malcolm, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
    Given that the car has all these ultrasonics, not to mention the rear facing camera, the system should be well aware of the rate at which vehicles behind are overtaking/flashing headlights/cutting in front etc.

    But Tesla's programmed response to this is caught between socially acceptable levels of speeding and a necessary observance of the law.

    We all bend/break the letter of traffic laws. Should machines be programmed with the same "fuzzy logic"?

    I can foresee the old HOV traffic lanes being rebranded AP lanes.

    Or maybe this is another reason why Elon wants to get Boring.
     
  10. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    The Stampede never disappeared from America. It just moved to the morning and evening rush hours. :(
     
  11. Mickie

    Mickie Member

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    There's another thread where the OP states that under the new FW, doing this,
    will deactivate AP and lock you out for the entirety of the trip. I'll link the thread here if I find it again.
     
  12. drklain

    drklain Member

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    I believe in that post, he exceeded 90mph which then disabled the AP...
     
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  13. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Why does he want Boring, Oregon? They say Portland is halfway between Boring and Progress.
     
  14. Mickie

    Mickie Member

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    To be fair, dflipse did say, "...but you can drive as fast as you want or need to." Good to know at any rate.
     
  15. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Don't be surprised if when AP 2.0 software is released it has no restriction, because "blah blah more advanced hardware blah blah. <stage_whisper>So if you upgrade your Tesla you'll get the ability to speed and use Autopilot back.</stage_whisper>."

    ;)

    I'm not surprised. I fully expect that autonomous cars will have to obey speed limits.

    But, if Tesla is imposing driving at the speed limit, it really, really, really needs to have a dumb cruise control mode.
     
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  16. mmccord

    mmccord Member

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    I was pulled over and given a warning for going 7 over in the left lane in NJ. Cop said I wasn't passing the guy in the right lane fast enough.
     
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  17. jweinstein

    jweinstein Member

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    I saw this on the TESLA Owners Worldwide group on Facebook. Can anyone with the latest update confirm that this is true?
     

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  18. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Voltage makes me tingle.

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    If true that's actually an OK compromise (although setting an offset as it has been in the past is the best way to do it).

    If that's not true, I'm definitely unhappy about this. Not unhappy enough to stop updating my car, but certainly it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
     
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  19. Keiki

    Keiki Member

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    I find that the AP function works well for me. I was surprised at how it has improved on surface streets and roads. My only objection is how the car interprets the speed limit signs. Here is what I mean; We have many streets with a school speed limit posted for certain hours of the day. When you drive through the school zone, the signage says to resume posted speed. The problem is that an actual speed is not posted for the resume speed. It is however posted at the beginning of the school zone as 15 mph or 20 mph (depending on school) so, you guessed it, the car fights me to maintain 15-20 mph in an area that has a much higher speed limit. The signs to slow down are exactly the same size, color and style of a "normal" speed sign.
    Not sure if AP will ever be able to sort that out.
     
  20. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Grouchy

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    Having just received the latest update I can confirm:

    TACC (Traffic Aware Cruise Control) is not limited to posted speed limits on any streets.

    AutoPilot (with Auto Steering engaged) is limited to posted speed limit on secondary streets/undivided highways. Before updating, it was limited to posted speed limit +5 MPH.

    Mike
     

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