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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

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I'll say this. I'm impressed with the specs of the Bolt. I'll probably go test drive one when it comes out. It could fit my needs, but it will need a better quick charging network.
From our experience, the Supercharger network is a huge deal in making the Tesla a wonderful experience. If GM et al are going to try to sell a significant number of longer range EV's, they're going to have to bite the bullet and come up with a serious fast charging network.

I'm very doubtful that there's a mass market for vehicles that mainly rely on home charging and can't be conveniently driven on trips well over 200 miles. Doubling or tripling the trip time to include charging won't be acceptable to most people.
 
Doubling or tripling the trip time to include charging won't be acceptable to most people.

Adding five minutes to the trip time to include charging won't be acceptable to most people.

We're still working with an early adopter market here that is willing to accept the compromises of limited range and refueling time, or just use another vehicle, because they appreciate the EV experience for other reasons.
 
Adding five minutes to the trip time to include charging won't be acceptable to most people.

We're still working with an early adopter market here that is willing to accept the compromises of limited range and refueling time, or just use another vehicle, because they appreciate the EV experience for other reasons.

You're assuming DC charging when AC charging is being talked about.
 
Your stunning array of supporting data leaves no doubt.

Thank you.

Thank you. I agree all the data has shown the Bolt is an overpriced piece of junk. An econobox for $37,500 with shite suspension, shite interior, shite body, shite safety, guaranteed to fail 2 years outside the warranty cell chemistry (calendar aging), all designed and engineered in Korea. Zero soul. An absolute disgrace. The LG Bolt.

I am really excited about the next gen Leaf. At least that vehicle shows ambition and love and will be autonomous ready
 
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Help me out. What is all this stuff?
My guesses:
bolt.jpg

purple: steering
violett: lead acid "starter" battery
sky blue: fluid bottles
cyan: part of inverter
pink: Air conditioning
green: traction battery
red: charger
brown: MacPherson strut suspension

not pictured: Bolt electric motor
2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-electric-motor.jpg
 
Guys, check out this Bolt demo video by GM. It has a number of things which are better than the Model S. Will the Model 3 have a configurable touchscreen, paddle regen, regen to full stop, wifi hotspot, auto park 'gear', camera based rear view wide angle 'mirror', top view parking, service centers everywhere, ability to have a car fixed in a day rather than a 2 week wait, etc?

Chevrolet Bolt Chief Engineer Takes Us Inside GMs 200-Mile Electric Car - Video - Inside EVs

Yeah, I know, lack of fast charge network, but don't kid yourself, Tesla is behind of a huge number of features than Mr. And Mrs. Middle American want. And to them, GM is a safer choice than Tesla.


What GM *could* have going for it is the fact that the interior and all the electronics don't need to be paid for by the Bolt development alone - if they're used in other vehicles as well. So, if they can get one extra software developer compared to Tesla, because they're spreading their cost over millions of vehicles made at GM, that's a big advantage. Whether they will take advantage of that, or get dragged down by it instead - that's a separate question. They (GM) do try, sometimes they can't get out of their own way (e.g., Saturn and fixed pricing.)
 
real nice crumple zone up front ehh. almost looks like it was designed in about 6 months by a bunch of 25 year old ICE engineers in Korea. zero elegance. reminds me of why I hate working on GM's

out back....same garbage as the Volt....bottom of the barrel torsion bar suspension which does not belong in a 37.5k vehicle

the saddest part is GM thinks they did a good job and did the impossible

the goal of the LG Bolt is to cast a halo over GM, just like the prius cast a halo over Toyota

It gives them the appearance of being green but they have no intention of changing their ways. The goal is to destroy Tesla.

If GM wanted to win the future they would have a few thousand engineers in the Silicon Valley and setup their own charging network
 
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I was thinking that extra paddle regen might be interesting, but is it any better than just mapping the max regen allowed to the acceleration pedal and sticking with one pedal driving?

Not at all, at least from the two EVs I've driven (smart electric drive and Leaf).

The Leaf has a high-regen mode, which also turns the gas pedal into a gas+regen brake pedal. It's great implementation, and there's almost no situation I use normal regen mode because I can still control regen levels with the gas pedal.

The smart has a paddle shifter for regen which can also be mimiced by careful use of either the brake pedal (brings out high regen mode) or gas pedal (puts the car into no-regen mode).

On the other hand, GM will always be able to provide you with service and support because their reluctant dealer network is already scaled and I doubt they will refuse to service EV's because they are getting paid for them.


Hah!

As a Leaf owner in "Not California", I can only service my Leaf at two dealerships in a top20 population US city full of dozens of Nissan dealerships. In those dealerships, they only have a small number of EV workers so I have to schedule service visits for the days they're working, not the days convenient for me.

Given that Gen 2 volts aren't even rolling out nationwide, that's not boding well for dealerships who--as we all know--are not GM and are not bound or required to purchase or hire EV technicians.

Even if I personally would prefer a Bolt (and honestly I probably would, as I like small hatchbacks, don't roadtrip often at all, and I like the look of the car), there's just no way I can buy one over a Model 3 because of the dealership model.
 
Um, this guy has a lot of proof that Tesla got it right when it comes to designing a car for adverse winter conditions:
Bjørn's Tesla Model S videos

Are all of us thousands of Canadian owners wrong too? Please!! Tesla is an amazing winter car.

My Smart ED is also awesome in the winter (see my blog for proof):
Smart Electric Drive: Smart in the snow

There is nothing better in the winter than a car that warms up quick, when idle at a stop light doesn't smell like gas fumes, and pre-heats before you get in it in your garage.


Just because some people own a Model S in Canada and Norway and it works for them does not mean that any EV will work for the masses who want to get in and drive without compromise or getting home without being stranded. Plus, the Model S is a 100k car with a 85-90kwh battery, the Bolt nor the Model 3 will have such a large battery. I have read many stories on this board as well as Tesla FB owner forums of people sweating bullets wondering if they were going to make it home because they are driving in to a 20mph headwind in -20f below weather. Do you disagree that EV performance and experience is different for someone who lives in southern climate versus northern climate? Remember, we early adopters will put up with a lot that future consumers will not. I need to get places just as easy on a -20f day versus a 70f day. But in the scheme of EV's we are talking about a world of different ranges.
 
Just because some people own a Model S in Canada and Norway and it works for them does not mean that any EV will work for the masses who want to get in and drive without compromise or getting home without being stranded. Plus, the Model S is a 100k car with a 85-90kwh battery, the Bolt nor the Model 3 will have such a large battery. I have read many stories on this board as well as Tesla FB owner forums of people sweating bullets wondering if they were going to make it home because they are driving in to a 20mph headwind in -20f below weather. Do you disagree that EV performance and experience is different for someone who lives in southern climate versus northern climate? Remember, we early adopters will put up with a lot that future consumers will not. I need to get places just as easy on a -20f day versus a 70f day. But in the scheme of EV's we are talking about a world of different ranges.

Teslas have 60, 70, 85, or 90 kWh packs.

The Bolt will have 60.

Leaf has 24 or 30.

I drive in winter conditions with a 24 pack no problems. Someone else might run out of range with a 60 kWh pack. You can't fix stupid.

No pack size will make an EV work for idiots that can't manage resources.

But for the 80% or more of us that can tell when we have enough fuel/charge to get from point A to point B EVs will work fine.
 
Teslas have 60, 70, 85, or 90 kWh packs.

The Bolt will have 60.

Leaf has 24 or 30.

I drive in winter conditions with a 24 pack no problems. Someone else might run out of range with a 60 kWh pack. You can't fix stupid.

I hope the winter conditions you talk about are not what you encounter in Tennessee. Last road trip I took in the Volt was 200 miles one way and the actual outside temp the whole way was no higher than -20. 200 miles is not a long road trip by any measure nor is it a frequent occurrence for most, nor would it be unusual for someone to be able to do that in a daily driver. I doubt any current EV's could do that today without a charge stop of which there was not a Super Charger on the way, unless they really used no heat and had no head wind. You would not believe the wind that comes on those open stretches of I35 and I90 when you are driving along and all that is around is wide open fields.

Remember, we are talking about mainstream adoption here, not people who have multiple cars for different occasions nor someone who is going to pull out an extension cord at each stop.
 
I suspect the Bolt will have slightly better range in the City. With the S60 I know from experience that it is fun to launch (Yes, not as fun as a P90D, but fun nonetheless), and one will probably use up comparatively more City driving energy that way. Compare that against the Bolt's lighter weight and the Bolt will win the range comparison in the City. But since City driving usually doesn't need 200 miles range, the point is mute and both cars will fair quite well in comparison.

Highway driving skews the range the other way to the S60's favor. Just looking at the two cars, I doubt the Bolt has as low a cd (drag coefficient) as the Model S's 0.24. We all know from experience that drag is the biggest obstacle to highway driving range - the faster you go the more drag on the car, and the less range you get. Here I suspect the S60 will get at least 20-30 miles more range than a Bolt, at say 65mph. Does anyone really drive 55mph? Factor in the supercharger network, and the S60 is the winner by a long shot.

Also, GM will really have to be aggressive with their SAE Combo DC charger network to be competitive. I am seeing some of these combo heads stations (with Chademo) in the wild with only 1 station at each location. Half the time they are down, or there is a line up. Tesla's 4-12 or more bays at each location is far superior. Also, if they are planning to do these at GM dealerships, that will fail too - as the locations aren't as strategic between destinations. I just don't see how they can possibly catch up on their network without a significant corporate mentality change.
 
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Just because some people own a Model S in Canada and Norway and it works for them does not mean that any EV will work for the masses who want to get in and drive without compromise or getting home without being stranded. Plus, the Model S is a 100k car with a 85-90kwh battery, the Bolt nor the Model 3 will have such a large battery

Listen again, I own two EV's, one is a Smart ED which does not have a huge battery (well size is relative, we could power our entire house for a day on 17 kwh).

What I said is true, EV's are better cars in winter climates than gas cars, full stop. Idling in a gas car on a traffic jam due to snow storm like we got this morning is awful, and I pity those who do. I leave home with either of our EV's pre-conditioned in our garage, they always start full of fuel, never need to stop for gas in the snow/rain/ice.

Again, you have no come back to why EV's are perfect for winter conditions. They just are. I've given the reasons, you've offered nothing in reply.
 
I need to get places just as easy on a -20f day versus a 70f day.

In general I take your point, but this is hyperbole. No vehicle or drivetrain technology can satisfy this requirement.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, you have no come back to why EV's are perfect for winter conditions. They just are. I've given the reasons, you've offered nothing in reply.

Looking out my window at the snow falling, I agree with you. I do think he or she has offered something, though – the typical range anxiety stuff. It comes down to what your priorities are. If the only thing important to you is refueling time and ability to refuel anywhere, ICE is currently better, this is well known. If a host of other things are also important to you, however, as it sounds like it is for you and also is for me, EV is better.
 
Half the hp, no superchargers, safety rating?
The S60 was rated by Tesla as 302 HP (225 kW) so the Bolt is not half the HP at 200 HP (150 kW) and, in any case, the S60 would need more power since it weighs ~750 pounds more. Actually, the Bolt has 80% of the HP of the S60 in terms of power divided by curb weight.

Obviously, the Bolt does not have a crash safety rating yet. For what it's worth, the Volt has a 5-star rating.

There is no supercharger-like highway-oriented 90 kW CCS DC Level 2 charging infrastructure yet but GM (along with other CCS car makers) still have opportunities to announce a plan since the Bolt is around a year away from general availability (and assuming the Bolt can take advantage of CCS DC Level 2 charging rather than just DC Level 1).
 
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The S60 was rated by Tesla as 302 HP (225 kW) so the Bolt is not half the HP at 200 HP (150 kW) and, in any case, the S60 would need more power since it weighs ~750 pounds more. Actually, the Bolt has 80% of the HP of the S60 in terms of power divided by curb weight.

Obviously, the Bolt does not have a crash safety rating yet. For what it's worth, the Volt has a 5-star rating.

And yet S 60 gets 0-60 times of 5.9 seconds(Tesla) and best published time is 5.6 seconds.

GM is saying under 7 seconds for the Bolt.

As you know Volt is a bigger car and Tesla does not engineer to barely meet a testing standard.
 
high power cells require thicker foils, more doping to increase conductivity, and more binder.

Not according to research:

Thick and thin electrodes showed capacity losses of only 6% upon cycling at C-rates of C/10 and C/5 while cycling at C/2 resulted in significant losses of 37% for the thick electrodes and only 8% for the thin electrodes. Pouch cells with thick electrodes showed 19% higher volumetric energy density at C/5 in comparison to thinner electrodes.

As I said, thinner layers for higher power, thicker layers for higher capacity.
http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/162/7/A1196.full


 
Not according to research:



As I said, thinner layers for higher power, thicker layers for higher capacity.
http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/162/7/A1196.full



yes a thicker electrode will store more energy but that is only a small piece of the layer cake. you have no idea what the main drivers of cost are when you make all the components (electrolyte, cathode, anode, foil, and separator, can) yourself. here let me help you (note all these cost estimates are totally wrong and I'm not about to give you the real floor price on any of them)


note their model comes up with materials at 49% total cost of a cell. The gigafactory will be over 90% material cost and those material costs will not be based on purchasing the materials (ready made electrolyte, cathode, anode, foil, and separator, can) it will be base on purchasing raw materials and making all the components. on top of that they will not be paying spot price as they are buying direct from north american mines (long term subsidized (but don't call it that) sweetheart deals the same as China does it)

http://www.cse.anl.gov/batpac/files/BatPaC ANL-12_55.pdf

The recent penetration of lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries into the vehicle market has prompted interest in projecting and understanding the costs of this family of chemistries being used to electrify the automotive powertrain. Additionally, research laboratories throughout the U.S. Department of Energy complex and various academic institutions are developing new materials for Li-ion batteries every day. The performance of the materials within the battery directly affects the end energy density and cost of the integrated battery pack. The development of a publically available model that can project bench-scale results to real world battery pack values would be of great use. This first version of the model, the battery performance and cost (BatPaC) model, represents the only public domain model that captures the interplay between design and cost of Li-ion batteries for transportation applications.

The amount of cobalt and nickel, as well as ease of manufacture, controls the end price for apositive electrode material. For example, the NMC-441 is less expensive than the NMC-333 asthe cobalt quantity is significantly reduced. The market prices for cobalt and nickel metals varydramatically from year to year. Reducing the quantities of these materials in the positiveelectrode will reduce the total price and price volatility. Researchers at TIAX LLC have treatedthis variation and shown the significant effect on end battery cost.10 The average traded metalprices and the 95% confidence intervals for the last 25 years is 44.4±18.3 $/kg and 14.9±7.6 $/kgfor cobalt and nickel respectively. These numbers are based on historical prices for the metals ascollected by the United States Geological Survey (USGS).48 The metal prices are indicators forhow the intercalation material cost will relate when compared to one another. The fact thesematerials are not earth abundant means they will not benefit as much as other materials fromincreased scales of production.We employ the relationship in Equation 5.1 to systematically calculate the cost of the transitionmetal based spinel and layered compounds. The final cost, C, of the lithiated oxide depends onthe baseline cost, C0, and the contributions of the lithium and transition metal raw materials, Ci.The molar stoichiometry, xi, is transformed to a mass basis with the molecular weight of the rawmaterial, MWi, and the final product, MW.

The baseline cost is the sum of the cost for processing,additional raw materials, and profit margin associated with the manufacture of the materials. Weassume a baseline cost of $7/kg for single metal containing oxides (LMO and LCO) and $16/kgfor the co-precipitated metal oxides such as NMC-333 and NMC-441. NCA is known to have aslightly lower yield and requires additional raw materials resulting in an assumed C0 = $20/kg.The costs for Li, Ni, Mn, and Co are taken to be 0.22, 0.87, 0.15, and 2.6 $/mol respectively. Thehistorical average metal prices for Ni and Co are used recognizing that these values will fluctuateover time. Aluminum is assumed to be similar in cost to manganese for these calculations. Onemay directly translate these numbers to raw materials costs resulting in $6/kg for Li2CO3,$5.6/kg for NiSO4, $16.9/kg for CoSO4, and $1/kg for MnSO4. Calculations are also shown inTable 5.1 using $4.8/mol ($81/kg) for cobalt as a demonstration of the upper 95% confidenceinterval cobalt price on the end material cost.

In general, earth abundant elements should be the dominate transition metals used if a low costpositive electrode is desired. Both iron and manganese are abundant and inexpensive transitionmetals for intercalation materials. Comparison of the iron phosphate, LFP, to manganese spinel,LMO, reveals how processing costs contribute to the end price of a material. LMO is relativelyeasy to manufacture. In contrast, LFP requires a reducing atmosphere and a carbon coating stepto reach the end product. The increased complexity in the manufacturing process is realized inthe price. However, one could argue that the manufacturing cost will decrease with increasedknowledge from larger scales of production.

5.2.1.2 Negative Electrode Active MaterialsWhile several negative electrode materials exist for Li-ion batteries, carbon materials in the formof graphite and/or hard carbon are still used in the vast majority of commercial cells. Graphite 57offers the greatest energy density while hard carbon is said to enable high rate capability withdecreased risk of lithium plating (an undesired side reaction) during high charge rates. We havechosen synthetic graphite as a generic carbon electrode in our model. Significant differences incost and performance will exist between synthetic, natural, and coated-natural graphite. Themethod of production and necessary heat-treatment will control the end cost. Manymanufacturers use a proprietary blend of natural and synthetic graphite and/or hard carbon in thenegative electrode of their cells. The user of the model may feel free to vary the price dependingon the application of interest.The lithium titanate electrode, LTO, offers an interesting option compared to graphite. Unlikegraphite, LTO operates within the stability window of the electrolyte. The higher electrodepotential, 1.5 V vs Li, dramatically reduces or eliminates the formation of the solid electrolyteinterphase (SEI). As a result, nanoparticle-based LTO may be implemented without concerns ofincreased side reactions with the electrolyte. The reduced nanoparticle dimensions increase theavailable surface area for reaction while simultaneously shortening the diffusion length. Both ofthese factors combined with the lack of SEI dramatically reduce the impedance of the electrode.5.2.1.3 Electrolyte and SeparatorThe electrolyte used in this model is based on a lithium hexafluorophosphate salt, LiPF6,dissolved in a carbonate based solvent system. The carbonate solvent system is a blend ofethylene carbonate, EC, and a linear carbonate such as ethyl methyl carbonate, EMC, or dimethylcarbonate, DMC.

Other chemical additives may be used to limit the capacity and power fade ofthe battery over time. Polymers may be added to the electrolyte as either a minor or majorcomponent. This is not discussed in any further detail in this work. The price of 18 $/kg, about22 $/L, is only for the base electrolyte (i.e. no additional additives).The separator is typically a porous membrane based on polypropylene (PP) and sometimesincludes a polyethylene (PE) middle layer. PP and PE are very inexpensive raw materials andthus the suggested cost of $2/m2is in large part due to the manufacturing process required toform the porous network in the membrane.

As competition and scale of manufacture increase,the prices of the separator may fall closer to $1/m2. However, the cost of improved technologymay offset some of this cost reduction, so we have retained our cost estimate of $2/m2. As safetyis a major concern for Li-ion batteries, the separator plays a key role in isolating the oxidant fromthe fuel. If the two charged electrodes contact each other (short), then a run-away reaction ispossible. Separators have been designed to “shut-down” or melt at key temperatures. The middlePE layer is the shut-down feature in our proposed separator. Ceramic coatings have also beenused to ensure structural integrity. Many other approaches are being developed to increase thesafety of Li-ion batteries. The user of the cost model should account for the specific separatortechnology in the price and dimensions (thickness and porosity) of the separator as needed.

5.2.1.3 Current Collector FoilsThe current collector foils are based on copper metal for the negative electrode and aluminum forthe positive electrode. However, the LTO anode material, because of its high voltage relative tolithium, enables the use of aluminum as the negative electrode current collector. The price of 58these foils is based on raw materials and manufacturing costs. The aluminum foil is produced byrolling of thicker stock foils into thinner and thinner sheets. On the other hand, copper foil ismore likely to be produced through an electrodeposition process. The foils are 12 microns and 20microns thick for the copper and aluminum current collectors respectively. The foils used inbatteries have additional requirements beyond the cheapest product available. Surface treatmentsare often necessary to promote adhesion of the composite electrode to the foil surface. Inaddition, alloying of the foil may be necessary to achieve the required material properties forlong life.The raw material contributions to the foil price will vary with the volatility of the market pricefor the metals. Figure 5.1 displays the metal ingot price contribution on a $/m2basis. Thesenumbers are based on historical prices for the metals as collected by the USGS.48 The values forboth aluminum and copper tend to vary significantly over the time period examined. The pricefor copper is more volatile and always more expensive than aluminum. Analysis of Figure 5.1reminds the user of the cost model that cost quotes are only valid for a short period. As themarket price for raw materials changes, so will the price for the finished product.Conversations with manufacturers and suppliers lead us to take a price of 1.80 and 0.80 $/m2forbattery grade copper and aluminum foil respectively. We point out that the current metal ingotprice is only a small contribution to the end foil price being about 16 % of the aluminum foilprice and 23 % of the copper foil price. Thus, a doubling of the ingot prices would onlymoderately increase the foil prices.

5.2.1.4 Additional Electrode ComponentsThe binder and conductive additive in the positive and negative electrodes add a small but realcost to the battery. The conductive additive, more common for the positive electrode, was pricedat 6.80 $/kg for a high purity and moderate surface area carbon black material. The binder,perhaps PVDF or CMC based, is assumed to be 10 $/kg. The N-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone (NMP)solvent for the PVDF binder is estimated to be 3.20 $/kg. Most of the NMP is recovered afterevaporation and recycled as discussed in section 5.3.3. Only the small amount lost in processingneed be replaced. No cost is assumed for water used in the electrode slurry processing.
 
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