Degradation of the Community...

[Struja]

Fair enough.

My comment wasn't exact anyway, it was just trying to convey the thought that Tesla the company is separate from Tesla the product and the decision to buy or not to buy.

But I do totally get where you are coming from on that issue.

I don't see a conflict where I could dislike the company but still love the car.

I think I am probably too new into ownership to really be all that objective because I look for reasons to drive around with a stupid grin on my face at all times. I've had the car for three months and I think I've hand washed it about twice a week!!!

Neighbours think I am a nut for sure!

 

[omarsultan]

I have to admit I also spend less time here. I think there is the same number of quality discussions as the earlier days, but its more work to find them--too many repetitive "Tesla sucks" threads and too many folks with an axe to grind trying to hijack otherwise useful discussions. I do miss reputation points and am trying to get more liberal about using "ignore" but worry about creating my own echo chamber.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Since we're talking disagreed and ignore lists. Interestingly I have just one person on ignore and my reason is quite simple, that person was disagreeing with so numerous posts. No, I don't even mean answering in a disagreeing fashion (though that too happens, but that's fine), just pressing Disagree excessively. No amount of reasoning or give and take ever changed the outcome.

It simply made notifications useless when such a frequency of notifications of disagrees were filling up that functionality. I kept losing track of threads to follow.

I think the Disagree button does serve a purpose. It does point out potential misinformation and it does balance the Likes, so gives a more balanced view of the public opinion on a post. But if someone makes it their mission to fill threads with Disagree on every post I write, well, that can actually hinder the usage experience...

 

[jeffro01]

Since we're talking disagreed and ignore lists. Interestingly I have just one person on ignore and my reason is quite simple, that person was disagreeing with so numerous posts. No, I don't even mean answering in a disagreeing fashion (though that too happens, but that's fine), just pressing Disagree excessively. No amount of reasoning or give and take ever changed the outcome.

It simply made notifications useless when such a frequency of notifications of disagrees were filling up that functionality. I kept losing track of threads to follow.

I think the Disagree button does serve a purpose. It does point out potential misinformation and it does balance the Likes, so gives a more balanced view of the public opinion on a post. But if someone makes it their mission to fill threads with Disagree on every post I write, well, that can actually hinder the usage experience...

It would be great if people only used the disagree button for misinformation and such... However, that's not the case... I get people who dislike my posts (same people all the time it feels like) no matter whether nor not my post was even remotely controversial, much less misinformed...

People like to quote how many dislikes I have and while some are absolutely earned, I'd say at least 40% are totally bogus...

Jeff

 

[Canuck]

Ah, Consumer Reports. I question their accuracy. I am returning a new washing machine that does not wash. CR said it's pretty good. The people who actually use it said otherwise.

You did your own polling?

The issue with forums, or when you have a problem with a product and research it, is that you can easily find others just like you doing the same. So you'd think "the people who actually use the product said otherwise". That's because the people who have no problems rarely post "all is great".

Consumer reports does polling based on a reasonably sized sample, and calcuates the margin of error. Of course, polls can be wrong, but far more often than not they are correct. The problem pollsters are now having is that you no longer have a random sample if you poll people by landline phones since people who have landline phones are already of a certain mindset, or at least enough of them are to skew the sample.

Just a data point that might help address your confusion: There is only one company in that list that makes an EV that I want to drive -- regardless of not-yet-delivered features that have already been paid for.

Would I buy again? Yes, because there are no compelling alternatives. While Consumer Reports might consider that a measure of satisfaction, I think that's a narrow view.

Am I satisfied as a customer? Yes and no. I'm on my third Model S. I'll likely buy Tesla again. Does that mean I'm completely satisfied with the brand or the leadership? Definitely not.

There is literally no other game in town.

Good point and one that I never considered.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Good, quality conversation. Thank you, guys.

 

[Sawyer8888]

Of course, polls can be wrong, but far more often than not they are correct.

I agree, and think Consumer Reports got it wrong in the case of this particular washing machine. This was one of the first times I looked at CR, which includes their opinion and the opinions of consumers (not my poll). I believe you are correct that more people are likely to post negative reviews instead of positive, which I always take into consideration. I put too much faith into that brand and model without considering all the reviews, especially the most recent.​

Much like the brand of the washer, I think I may have put too much faith into Tesla before considering all the reviews - positive and negative. I want to love it, but I can't. Perhaps after they remove the roof, windshield and lift gate to correct a panel-fit issue on the roof, and AP2 is at least similar to AP1 and rain-sensing wipers work, among a few other things, I'll be happy. I can hope.​

My CR argument was a bit weak as written, so I can understand being called out on it. And thank you for keeping it cordial. You do seem to have a very good reputation on this forum, so your reasonable and thought-out reply was not a surprise.

 

[Canuck]

I agree, and think Consumer Reports got it wrong in the case of this particular washing machine.

Certainly CR can and do get it wrong. @brianman made a good point as to why they may be wrong in relation to Tesla, since there's really no other "buy again" real competition for Tesla when it comes to EVs. Actually, they are not wrong with the numbers, but the reason for the answer may not relate to quality or satisfaction but rather no other real options.

Just out of curiosity, was it a Samsung washer?

Much like the brand of the washer, I think I may have put too much faith into Tesla before considering all the reviews - positive and negative. I want to love it, but I can't. Perhaps after they remove the roof, windshield and lift gate to correct a panel-fit issue on the roof, and AP2 is at least similar to AP1 and rain-sensing wipers work, among a few other things, I'll be happy. I can hope.

It sounds to me like Tesla earned and deserves your opinion of them given what you've gone through.

And thank you for keeping it cordial. You do seem to have a very good reputation on this forum, so your reasonable and thought-out reply was not a surprise.

It must be your Rolling Stone's avatar. How can I go hard at a Rolling Stone's fan?

(But thanks for the kind words.)

 

[cpa]

In most cases, the problem isn't content, it's tone. I pointed this out a while ago in one of @wk057's threads. He had a tendency to come out on the offensive, then he'd be surprised at the pushback. My suggestion was to rephrase it and lay off the heat because when you swing, people swing back. His next thread took a much more informative tone and was extremely cooperative. I don't pretend to know whether he took my advice, did it to show me he'd still get pushback, or neither, but the reaction difference is clear.

Curt, one sentence responses generally have a poor tone. Absolute assuredness nearly always does as well. Have an ounce of humility. This applies not only to those frustrated with Tesla, but to those defenders of Tesla. Repeating yourself is annoying to others.

Dissent is not the problem. A severe lack of polite and effective communication skills is.

Nailed it, Ohhman. I have seen many responses and replies that indicate..

(1) Lack of reading comprehension. For some reason sometimes people just do not read the entire post carefully. Their response demonstrates their poor reading habits.

(2) Laziness by not writing a little bit more than, "You gotta a link?" Is too much to write, "Where did you obtain this information? Was it on this site, or was it somewhere else?"

(3) Hackneyed phrases like "Pictures or it did not happen," are tiresome and have worn out their novelty. We are not in junior high--at least I hope not.

(4) Condescending and patronizing tones in response to legitimate questions about something. There can be a lot of this at times, especially when those not in the know are inquiring of those in the know.

What I think helps me, anyway, is to be more personal. If I disagree or am confused about what someone wrote, I try to start off my reply with the person's name. This makes the reply more personal and less detached.

 

[Sawyer8888]

Just out of curiosity, was it a Samsung washer?

I definitely had a good laugh when I read that. We are done with all things Samsung, except their phones. I won't bore everyone with all the details about our Samsung experience that include their washing machines, dryers and TVs. But, a few weeks ago our Samsung front-loading washing machine was put on the curb (drum came loose). I could go on about how poor their non-phone products are, but this is not the forum or the thread. Unlike their laundry appliances and TVs with undersized, low-quality capacitors, Samsung's customer service is outstanding. Really, they are very good on that front.

To answer your question, it was a brand new Maytag top-loader, high-efficiency. Their customer service is atrocious as well. Even reps at Home Depot were surprised at how poorly they were treated by Maytag.​

Sorry for getting off topic there.

This thread is very helpful in pointing out how the TMC community feels about those who do not take due care in how they express their opinions.

In the meantime, be safe out there this Labor Day weekend. And remember to be kind to your neighbors and fellow TMC members.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@brianman made a good point as to why they may be wrong in relation to Tesla, since there's really no other "buy again" real competition for Tesla when it comes to EVs. Actually, they are not wrong with the numbers, but the reason for the answer may not relate to quality or satisfaction but rather no other real options.

I suspect there is some of the same happening in especially Model S's category-leading sales figures. Some of it, sure, is because it is a good product in the category, but some of it is also because "what else is there" of you want a large-battery BEV. So Model S attracts Prius buyers, for example, and people for whom Tesla is their most expensive car ever. (Interestingly Prius itself was a category-breaker in its day too.)

Model S sales figures - just like Tesla's buy again rating - may well change once there are more alternatives.

Interesting to see how and when that may play out.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I suspect there is some of the same happening in especially Model S's category-leading sales figures. Some of it, sure, is because it is a good product in the category, but some of it is also because "what else is there" of you want a large-battery BEV. So Model S attracts Prius buyers, for example, and people for whom Tesla is their most expensive car ever. (Interestingly Prius itself was a category-breaker in its day too.)

Model S sales figures - just like Tesla's buy again rating - may well change once there are more alternatives.

Interesting to see how and when that may play out.

And in many ways, this is Elon's primary goal.

Tesla's success will bring more EV competition. Ultimately moving the world from ICE.

Just as the Prius moved many automakers into hybrids, Tesla will move more into BEVs. The Europeans see it. The Americans don't want to see it, but see it. Now the Japanese are looking too.

And the new and up and coming Chinese are embracing it....who might be able to leap frog over the current majors, if the majors are not willing to adapt.

Oops, sorry, off-topic again...

 

[Electroman]

If one is mad about - say - their real EAP is nowhere to be seen, perhaps complain to Tesla to make it so, instead of repeatedly spamming a forum?

too many repetitive "Tesla sucks" threads and too many folks with an axe to grind trying to hijack otherwise useful discussions

That is my beef too. It is not that 'AP2 sucks' post from any poster that bothers me, but crashing every site with the same vile tone repetitively .

 

[AnxietyRanger]

That is my beef too. It is not that 'AP2 sucks' post from any poster that bothers me, but crashing every site with the same vile tone repetitively .

And there are a bunch of us who have similar issues with repeated pro-Tesla angles from a certain contigent of people.

As that is not likely to change either, may I suggest we just try to get along? It is what it is. We are all humans and have different biases.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And in many ways, this is Elon's primary goal.

Tesla's success will bring more EV competition. Ultimately moving the world from ICE.

I think that's arguable. Would his goal, for example, be that others succeed so well that Tesla is trampled on and fails? Probably not. I think the argument that Elon is more a selfish business person at times than a man on a mission has some merit to it. Painting it as an unselfish mission is probably not accurate either.

But I do agree with the BEV mission and the world changing personally, and do agree it is a mission for Elon as well. But I do think he'd also want to win it and would IMO probably fight attempts by others to win it, even to the detriment of the mission. (No, I don't think the patent case is any proof to the contrary.)

 

[3Victoria]

I think that's arguable. Would his goal, for example, be that others succeed so well that Tesla is trampled on and fails? Probably not. I think the argument that Elon is more a selfish business person at times than a man on a mission has some merit to it. Painting it as an unselfish mission is probably not accurate either.

But I do agree with the BEV mission and the world changing personally, and do agree it is a mission for Elon as well. But I do think he'd also want to win it and would IMO probably fight attempts by others to win it, even to the detriment of the mission. (No, I don't think the patent case is any proof to the contrary.)

I think that EM feels there is a lot of room in the total car market,and that Tesla can do well even by 'not winning it all'. Of course he wants to make money -- so he can accomplish his other goals. But I do think that he wants to green the planet in a large way. It is pretty evident that we are already paying the price for increased CO2 levels -- eg Harvey being bigger because of changes to the jet-stream caused by the melting of the permafrost.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think that EM feels there is a lot of room in the total car market,and that Tesla can do well even by 'not winning it all'. Of course he wants to make money -- so he can accomplish his other goals. But I do think that he wants to green the planet in a large way.

Frankly, I think Elon also wants to make money. Period. It is not an either-or debate, I speculate he wants personal fortune and wealth as one (didn't he just buy a new private jet?), he want's to do interesting things and succeed in them, and he has personal values and goals as well. Sounds like a human being.

I'm just put off by wording that sounds like unselfish-hero worship. I think that is misleading. Elon ain't no Mother Theresa. (That said, let's not open that can of worms either...)

It is pretty evident that we are already paying the price for increased CO2 levels -- eg Harvey being bigger because of changes to the jet-stream caused by the melting of the permafrost.

I'd recommend not making this thread about environmental issues. Not that they don't matter or that I'd disagree, I just think they are a can of worms debate-wise and off-topic...

 

[kort677]

Some on this thread have managed to convince others that the point is about silencing contrary opinions.

It was about civility & not attacking other forum members directly or indirectly. Most people here love vigorous debate. I do. But I don't love the either direct attacks on others or the more subtle attacks (yes, I see you when you do that). It derails any possibility for subsequent good discussion.

It's interesting how your point about the personal attacks is touched upon often but a few messages back a scathing attack message remains sans comment or moved by the mods, my point is that vagueness of moderation

 

[kort677]

Nailed it, Ohhman. I have seen many responses and replies that indicate..

(1) Lack of reading comprehension. For some reason sometimes people just do not read the entire post carefully. Their response demonstrates their poor reading habits.

(2) Laziness by not writing a little bit more than, "You gotta a link?" Is too much to write, "Where did you obtain this information? Was it on this site, or was it somewhere else?"

(3) Hackneyed phrases like "Pictures or it did not happen," are tiresome and have worn out their novelty. We are not in junior high--at least I hope not.

(4) Condescending and patronizing tones in response to legitimate questions about something. There can be a lot of this at times, especially when those not in the know are inquiring of those in the know.

What I think helps me, anyway, is to be more personal. If I disagree or am confused about what someone wrote, I try to start off my reply with the person's name. This makes the reply more personal and less detached.

You make some valid points however you seem to fail to understand that everyone who participates here may not be as erudite as you may be.

 

[OBX John]

It was nice to see a respectful back and forth on this thread! Well done.

I need to give TMC another chance, but with much more liberal use of the ignore feature for the few who can't help themselves.