Firmware 6.0 (beta version discussion)

[ElSupreme]

EXIF data on the picture says it was taken today (8/19). Also, it says it was taken by "Michael".

This is why when you resize your pictures to post on TMC you save as PNG, then back to JPEG. Get rid of that EXIF data.

 

[iadbound]

While I certainly have no objection to upgrading the navigation that I haven't even had a chance to use yet, I'll admit that I almost never use navigation in my current car. Thus, I doubt I will get a big lift out of traffic-aware routing, but who knows.

Likewise, I doubt that the calendar feature will make a big difference either -- but I do think it is critical that Tesla up its phone integration across the board, so this is an important step on that path.

In the end, almost everyone here wants different things, and I can't see how Tesla could ever begin to meet all those different requests. Although I'm pretty sure "Shuffle" can't be all that hard. :biggrin:

 

[tomas]

AND... in addition to weighing all of the varying customer priorities for new features, I would imagine Tesla Motors is listening to its sales people and looking at competitive features.

If the sales people have been saying more glitzy maps and navigation is a "wow" during the sales process, that would carry a LOT of weight.

I'm also not a big user of nav... almost everywhere I'm going, I already know how to get there, as well as contingency routes. However, with traffic-aware routing I'm much more likely to use it so I can take into account its advice as well as its travel time calculations. I'm also a LOT more likely to use nav when the darned blue line doesn't cover up the traffic information!

 

[Volker.Berlin]

I agree with Bonnie on this. Unlike a key fob, you can lock your phone. That is most people lock their phone so no one can access anything on it. I can't limit someone from using my fob once it's stolen.

I think you are missing something, too. To use the key fob, you have to steal it. To use the mobile phone app, you simply download it on your own mobile phone. No need to steal and unlock the Tesla owner's phone.

However, then you still have to overcome the digital security barrier, which may be more difficult or less difficult than stealing a key fob, depending on how it's implemented and how safe a password the Tesla owner chose.

 

[NigelM]

However, then you still have to overcome the digital security barrier, which may be more difficult or less difficult than stealing a key fob, depending on how it's implemented and how safe a password the Tesla owner chose.

Actually there are effectively two digital security barriers, you need the username AND the password if you're going to duplicate someone's phone app control. I've read many times that the majority of car thefts are opportunistic and it's hard to see why someone would want to target one specific VIN and then download an app and go to all the trouble of hacking someone's login credentials.

If you sign out of the app the password is needed to log back in (regardless of whether the phone is locked; having it password enabled means that the phone (at least) is one level of security higher than just using your key fob. If the phone is locked also then it's two levels better than the key. Even if you don't lock your phone, keeping the app live is no less secure than carrying your key fob around; just remember not to lose either.

 

[trils0n]

I think you are missing something, too. To use the key fob, you have to steal it. To use the mobile phone app, you simply download it on your own mobile phone. No need to steal and unlock the Tesla owner's phone.

However, then you still have to overcome the digital security barrier, which may be more difficult or less difficult than stealing a key fob, depending on how it's implemented and how safe a password the Tesla owner chose.

Really depends how they implement it. Password / PIN would be good to combine with the start-car function of the app only working if a previously paired and setup phone was paired with the car. That way it would need to be your phone to start the car, and you'd need the password.

 

[MicTheCat]

Remember Bluetooth

If they done right, the only way a phone can unlock the car is if it has previous been connected via bluetooth and then it's unique. Then only way a thief can steal your car is to steal your key fob or your phone. And then if phone is password protected its more secure than the fob... PERIOD!

EDIT: SECURITY LIABILITY

I just saw how the release notes said you will be able to start the car without the key fob using the mobile app. Given that the mobile app itself is very insecure as is their current authentication methods (discussed very much in depth in other threads), basically this opens up the car to be VERY EASILY STOLEN. Once an attacker has you username and password which again is very easy to compromise, (even a simple spam phishing email could dup anyone into logging into tesla online (a fake dup site) which would compromise your credentials), then they can use the app to #1) locate your car using the GPS feature, #2 unlock the car via the unlock feature, and now #3 start your car and drive off. previously the only thing you would really have to worry about it someone finding and unlockign and stealing anything you have inside, but now Tesla has given the ability for someone to just drive off with your car. ***IMO THIS IS A BIG NO-NO*** and I think this is a very very bad feature. Unfortunately, there is NO WAY for you to even stop this. Even if you refuse to update your phone software, an attacker would just download the Tesla app and have the latest software and be able to start your car. I **REALLY** hope this forced feature includes a password protected option (kinda like the VALET mode if that ever comes to light) to disable the remote starting of the car from an app. I do not want anyone stealing my car. I wonder how many of you use the same login/password for TMC and your Tesla account. then, if someone were to compromise this site itself, it would give them thousands of login/pass crediatials and they can brute force try each one and have a list of all the successful ones and then they can start going around stealing all the cars. You start to get my point here? This feature is a big no-no and one that opens it up to the cars being VERY EASILY located, unlocked, and stolen. BAD TESLA, BAD.

 

[GaryREM]

If they done right, the only way a phone can unlock the car is if it has previous been connected via bluetooth and then it's unique. Then only way a thief can steal your car is to steal your key fob or your phone. And then if phone is password protected its more secure than the fob... PERIOD!

+100 for an intelligent answer.

All this concern about the implementation is being done WITHOUT knowledge of the implementation. There are ways to do this which could be very secure.

Tesla 'appears' to be taking security seriously, but we won't know if they have succeeded until this update get's in the wild. Anything now is speculation.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

This is why when you resize your pictures to post on TMC you save as PNG, then back to JPEG. Get rid of that EXIF data.

If you are using Photoshop, there is no need for the intermediary PNG step. Just select "Save to Web..." and the EXIF data is stripped.

- - - Updated - - -

Very unlikely that this was a controlled leak. They historically have not done things that way. And this would have been a clumsy way of doing so, not to mention that IF you wanted to gauge customer response, you do it before you're this far down the path, so you can adjust direction. To do it now would make absolutely zero sense.

You're probably right. I'm just reaching for any explanation I can think of that would give me cause to dismiss these screen shots. The reason is because I find the release to be such a letdown. I don't want this to be all there is to 6.0.

 

[32no]

Eh. A little disappointing. We've been waiting for this update for a long time. It was promised in the winter originally, so I thought they would be adding even more features, but apparently not.

 

[Zythryn]

Eh. A little disappointing. We've been waiting for this update for a long time. It was promised in the winter originally, so I thought they would be adding even more features, but apparently not.

As said by others...

A) Many people started daydreaming and speculating what they wanted in there. This grew expectations far above reality (most likely).
B) if this is indeed an image of the Beta, why in the world would you expect it to show everything (the last page is cut off) and why in the world would you expect it to be the final version?

 

[bonnie]

I know a bunch of you are disappointed ... but honestly, you all worked yourself up as to what to expect with wish lists and 'maybe this and maybe that and why not this and this would be cool, too'. We said it before this leak happened and nothing has changed -- there is no way Tesla could have pleased much of this crowd because of how so many pumped each other up.

It's happened before on what people thought deliveries would be before earnings release. And it wasn't that long ago before this same group had convinced itself that the X was about to be delivered (even though there was no actual data to support that).

So no. When things are delayed it doesn't mean engineering keeps adding more features. It means they're getting things right. There isn't an engineering team on this earth that's going to say, 'Hey we're done ... but y'know, let's not release it yet and just keep adding features.' (And this hasn't been released yet, btw.) What other car is there that is constantly getting better? Right. And instead we have threads about how the 'getting better' isn't good enough.

I have zero doubt that this engineering team is working long hard hours, that it is a very talented team, and hopefully none of them are looking at threads like this that try to second guess the quality of their work & complain they didn't do more. If you've ever been on a team, it's just demoralizing to find out that people think your work is inconsequential, or worse. It's not just the internet, these are real people. And they've done some amazing work. And will continue to do some amazing work.

 

[jerry33]

While I certainly have no objection to upgrading the navigation that I haven't even had a chance to use yet, I'll admit that I almost never use navigation in my current car. Thus, I doubt I will get a big lift out of traffic-aware routing, but who knows.

I didn't use Nav much in my previous car--mainly because it was hard to use. I now use it all the time in the Model S.

 

[Knobby]

Name my car? hmmm I'd like to be able to name the radio stations.

 

[iffatall]

If this is the final v6, my disappointment would not be based on all the speculation build up at all. Sure, I have a long wish list too, but I would not be disappointed because that wishlist was not fulfilled.

The reason behind the disappointment would be the time taken for the release. Remember they have been mentioning ongoing beta testing for several months now. Given the time taken for the development, and the time taken for the testing, this set of new features seems to be too small. Add to that missing simple upgrades a huge majority of customers have been asking for (eg., shuffle) - that obviously require very little development and testing effort.

Now of course this is all assuming the final release is going to be exactly as in the screenshots - which may not be the case. But I do have a feeling it is. May be they found a some major bugs in other features and did not want to delay v6 longer, so went ahead with the subset of features that works well.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with us getting disappointed. This still still makes Tesla look better than others - you have to have expectations first to get disappointed.

- - - Updated - - -

Name my car? hmmm I'd like to be able to name the radio stations.

Very well said.

 

[dsm363]

I know a bunch of you are disappointed ... but honestly, you all worked yourself up as to what to expect with wish lists and 'maybe this and maybe that and why not this and this would be cool, too'. We said it before this leak happened and nothing has changed -- there is no way Tesla could have pleased much of this crowd because of how so many pumped each other up.

It's happened before on what people thought deliveries would be before earnings release. And it wasn't that long ago before this same group had convinced itself that the X was about to be delivered (even though there was no actual data to support that).

So no. When things are delayed it doesn't mean engineering keeps adding more features. It means they're getting things right. There isn't an engineering team on this earth that's going to say, 'Hey we're done ... but y'know, let's not release it yet and just keep adding features.' (And this hasn't been released yet, btw.) What other car is there that is constantly getting better? Right. And instead we have threads about how the 'getting better' isn't good enough.

I have zero doubt that this engineering team is working long hard hours, that it is a very talented team, and hopefully none of them are looking at threads like this that try to second guess the quality of their work & complain they didn't do more. If you've ever been on a team, it's just demoralizing to find out that people think your work is inconsequential, or worse. It's not just the internet, these are real people. And they've done some amazing work. And will continue to do some amazing work.

Totally agree. One of our very own TMC friends is there now and working really hard so I'm sure things will progress even quicker in the future. This appears to be a really good update even if it doesn't have everything we dreamed of and Elon spoke about coming one day. Not everything he mentioned was promised for this release but we read that into it.

I bet a bulk of the work is behind the scenes and maybe getting things ready for Model X too. Future releases will likely have more of what we all wish for.

 

[brianman]

I look forward to the calendar functionality. No more manually entering addresses.

I already have that today with 5.11 firmware. Important addresses are contacts in my phone.

 

[bonnie]

If this is the final v6, my disappointment would not be based on all the speculation build up at all. Sure, I have a long wish list too, but I would not be disappointed because that wishlist was not fulfilled.

The reason behind the disappointment would be the time taken for the release. Remember they have been mentioning ongoing beta testing for several months now. Given the time taken for the development, and the time taken for the testing, this set of new features seems to be too small. Add to that missing simple upgrades a huge majority of customers have been asking for (eg., shuffle) - that obviously require very little development and testing effort.

Now of course this is all assuming the final release is going to be exactly as in the screenshots - which may not be the case. But I do have a feeling it is. May be they found a some major bugs in other features and did not want to delay v6 longer, so went ahead with the subset of features that works well.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with us getting disappointed. This still still makes Tesla look better than others - you have to have expectations first to get disappointed.

So I don't know what engineering hurdles the team faced, but it's entirely possible that the inputs changed midstream (say, how traffic data was supplied) or some other 3rd party input that they do not have complete control over. Maybe they had to make it compatible with an X platform that was different when it wasn't supposed to be. Maybe they're planning in forward compatibility to Model 3. Maybe some major area of the software was rewritten that has nothing to do with the UI, that will be completely transparent to us, but will eliminate a number of random issues people have had. I don't know and neither does anyone else in this discussion.

My point is that without having been ON the team, it's impossible for us to judge what is reasonable to expect and what is not. We simply do not know. What seems simple to us from afar could be the most complex of all, for reasons we simply haven't thought of. Saying something is merely 'a simple upgrade that requires very little development and testing effort' is opinion. Maybe that area of the code is slated to be touched on another release, so for efficiency sake, it's left alone now (that would be my decision). Then there is NO additional testing effort because it's rolled into other testing effort. That would be the smart use of resources, giving the maximum output with minimum bandwidth.

 

[brianman]

My point is that without having been ON the team, it's impossible for us to judge what is reasonable to expect and what is not.

Gotta disagree with you on this one. Using your logic, you can have no objective evaluation by a 3rd party of any software project ever undertaken.

It's completely reasonable to expect that "6.0" should have been released sooner. You are right that we don't have enough (public) data to evaluate what features should have been cut long ago to make that happen.

 

[bonnie]

Gotta disagree with you on this one. Using your logic, you can have no objective evaluation by a 3rd party of any software project ever undertaken.

It's completely reasonable to expect that "6.0" should have been released sooner. You are right that we don't have enough (public) data to evaluate what features should have been cut long ago to make that happen.

Okay, if you take one sentence out of the two paragraphs, then fine. Disagree with the sentence. But no, using my logic doesn't mean you can have no objective evaluation by a 3rd party of any software project ever undertaken. I didn't say that. That's taking it to the extreme. That kind of extreme statement is great for scoring points in a debate in front of a college crowd, but not so great for an actual discussion about issues.

I'm disappointed, too, like many people here. But not in the software we've seen so far.