FSD Beta 10.69

[Dewg]

The only thing about this theory here is that I am fairly sure it couldn’t see a thing, except for cars that were very close.

The great big sign was in the way. It’s enormous, and would have been worse for the camera than for me. Not in the way at all if you just move up though.

Maybe it was waiting for no close cars? I’ll find out at some point if I ever go back there, and take a picture.

I've got a solution - put FSD Beta on this:

 

[Daniel in SD]

Maybe it was waiting for no close cars? I’ll find out at some point if I ever go back there, and take a picture.

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with an algorithm that just waits until it might be clear to creep. Earlier versions would creep with cars approaching and spook people! It's all very context dependent though and suppose you might miss a small gap if you wait to creep on that turn.
I look forward to more Alan's left turn videos but I feel that you are not as brave as other FSD beta users (perhaps more fearful of losing your free unlimited supercharging?).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

feel that you are not as brave as other FSD beta users (perhaps more fearful of losing your free unlimited supercharging?).

Brave is one word for it, I suppose.

I think unless the median is quite roomy, that strategy is pretty worthless in most cases. Who wants to sit in the middle of the road with traffic whizzing past you at 50mph just a couple feet away?

Chuck’s is maybe more reasonable because it’s clearly marked, and it’s also several feet wider. A little bit less terrible; you can stay separated from the traffic and don’t have to be as precise about positioning the vehicle. And you know that no one is going to be merging into the yellow area PAST the turn, to take a left (not the case on Miramar).

As I mentioned, I am sure plenty of people just zoom into the double yellow area to get up to speed, though clearly not allowed.

 

[Daniel in SD]

As I mentioned, I am sure plenty of people just zoom into the double yellow area to get up to speed, though clearly not allowed.

I agree that I would not use the median there. Maybe if I had to do it daily in heavy traffic and got a good feel for whether there was enough room or not.

 

[archae86]

I've used FSD often at night in suburban, rural and cross country interstate settings without cabin camera issue. 2021 M3. Maybe you have a camera issue that needs checked by the service center?

I finally made my very first service request in six months ownership for my issue of autosteer aborting in low light levels with a cabin camera complaint. My description got truncated. I don't know whether that was an iPhone Copy/paste limitation, a Tesla app max text length limitation, or my fumbling. Anyway, a mobile tech is currently scheduled to visit me. I did do a "bug report" for one of the episodes at a repeating problem location on a major local road (which is darker at that location than elsewhere). But my mention of the bug report was in the truncated part. I don't know whether mobile techs can usually access bug reports when they visit.

Optimistically, maybe by now they know they have this problem on cars with defective illuminators, and maybe they actually have a way for a mobile tech to test the illuminators. We'll see.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Had a really good drive through the neighborhood on my way home from the ULT.

 

[kriskros91]

Any chance the 10.69.2.1 update is on the 2022.24 or later branch?

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

Supply and demand. Well, demand - FSD is just a software download, so supply should be unlimited

were those 200 people still necessary? It's quite possible that the need had decreased.

They can do whatever they want with the price. It's up to consumers to decide whether they'll pay it or not.

He's BETTING that FSD and Robotaxis are going to make the company really profitable. How about he just make more cars and satisfy the demand all the while streamlining the build so the price can come down? Last thing I saw was less than 20 percent of buyers fork over the FSD bonus

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Any chance the 10.69.2.1 update is on the 2022.24 or later branch?

Definitely possible, since they have jumped the branches recently within the 10.69 series of releases (didn’t they? Maybe I am misremembering? I thought 10.69 was super old still and 10.69.1 jumped or maybe 10.69.1.1).

Hope so. Want that repeater camera positioning change!

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

Brave is one word for it, I suppose.

I think unless the median is quite roomy, that strategy is pretty worthless in most cases. Who wants to sit in the middle of the road with traffic whizzing past you at 50mph just a couple feet away?

Chuck’s is maybe more reasonable because it’s clearly marked, and it’s also several feet wider. A little bit less terrible; you can stay separated from the traffic and don’t have to be as precise about positioning the vehicle. And you know that no one is going to be merging into the yellow area PAST the turn, to take a left (not the case on Miramar).

As I mentioned, I am sure plenty of people just zoom into the double yellow area to get up to speed, though clearly not allowed.

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Chuck's left turn is a laugh riot. I could take that left hand turn by driving into the gap in the median and when clear floor it. The car just dithers forever and if there is a car even remotely close it gives up

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

I agree with this.

For example, Elon has said before that he could go from his home to his job with zero interventions. So, one can conclude that on his route, he has no 3-4 lane intersections where FSD gets confused by combinations of red/green signals in adjacent lanes, nor (for example) does he have trees in the median strip casting shadows onto the roadway causing repeated phantom braking. Nor does he encounter stopped school buses with the red stop signs sticking out from the side. And no notable lane change needs along the way.

For starters.

He's in Texas. 2 lane dirt roads, no buildings, cars driving like nuts on the expressway. The car does fine on simple right left streets, expressway, it blows past exits and I STILL don't believe how much time it takes the car to resume at a 2,3,4 way stop sign when there isn't anything in sight. I could park the car, run around it a few times, get back in, and resume driving in the time it takes

 

[Dewg]

Had a really good drive through the neighborhood on my way home from the ULT.

Hmmmm.... first turn looked great to me. When you say "a ton of brakes", it was 25MPH reduction in 5 seconds before you said "it's easing off". If it was accelerating 25MPH in 5 seconds you'd say that was WAY TOO SLOW, so how is 25MPH deceleration "a ton of brakes"? I assure you that if you drive manually and apply "a ton of brakes" the car will stop MUCH faster than that.

Then on the turn you keep saying "gotta go!", but it was going just fine - after you completed your turn the light was still a green arrow. It wasn't like the light saw the 2 car-length gap and switched yellow, your car hit the rear lane sensors just fine and kept the light green. I've never had a green arrow signal switch because of the gap from my car.

After the turn there is some white dashes painted into the street, perhaps the road was recently re-paved and still didn't have lane lines re-painted? The car was losing the lane lines in the visualization, treating it like an unmarked road, but then the dashes went from what looks like a bike lane into what looks like a 2nd lane, and the car picked up the lane in the visualization, and looks like it was favoring the wrong lane and moved to the right before the left turn.

Then the stop sign, you say it's too slow. It slowed 30MPH in 10 seconds. Previously you said 25MPH in 5 seconds was "a ton of brakes" - where is your sweet spot, Goldilocks?

Then you press the accelerator at the stop because it's "too slow", but your speed never hit 0MPH, meaning you wanted it to do a rolling stop, which it can't do (they got in trouble for that). It must come to a complete stop (0MPH, all forward momentum halted), then move forward.

You're also doing 29 on a 25 residential street.

The next right turn, it was definitely cautious. As for being behind the truck instead of pulling to the right of the truck, it has a margin for where it can "squeeze", and felt it didn't have enough room to do so safely so it stayed behind him and then made the move to the right. You likely wanted it to at least start to move to the right, signaling your intent to turn right for anyone behind you, but the turn signals took care of that.

The next stop sign you disengaged, so I couldn't figure out how fast it was slowing down, but it seemed normal based on distance. You said later it was doing some weird move to the right, which is why you disengaged, but that didn't translate on video, so I'll take your word for it.

The alarm is common in this build due to the pedestrian - it's being SUPER cautious around peds right now as Elon mentioned. I'm guessing this will be tweaked as the next update rolls out soon.

The final left I agree was a little odd angled - it may have had a look to the right when the A-pillar camera was swinging into the turn and thought it saw something, but then dismissed it and made the turn.

Overall, I agree with you that it was a really good drive. You're hyper critical of FSD, and reporting things that are subjective - the car didn't do anything wrong on most of your reportings. It was in the center of the lane. It was accelerating and decelerating when appropriate. It was trying to come to a complete stop, but you weren't letting it. It had the hiccup in the newly paved road where the lane lines were oddly spray painted in before actual painting, and what looked like a lane selection problem, I grant you that.

 

[sleepydoc]

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with an algorithm that just waits until it might be clear to creep. Earlier versions would creep with cars approaching and spook people! It's all very context dependent though and suppose you might miss a small gap if you wait to creep on that turn.
I look forward to more Alan's left turn videos but I feel that you are not as brave as other FSD beta users (perhaps more fearful of losing your free unlimited supercharging?).

Agreed. the only caveat is if it does so it needs to creep and decide to go quickly so it doesn't hesitate and miss the opening. This has been an issue in the past - the algorithm is too slow to decide and by the time it decides it's missed its chance. I'm sure this will improve with improvements to the algorithm and optimization but it's tedious in the mean time.

 

[Dewg]

He's BETTING that FSD and Robotaxis are going to make the company really profitable. How about he just make more cars and satisfy the demand all the while streamlining the build so the price can come down? Last thing I saw was less than 20 percent of buyers fork over the FSD bonus

Telsa is a nearly $1T company. Honda is $45B, GM is $60, Ford is $62B, and Totoya is $230B. How much more profitable do they need to be? They're making cars as fast as they can, and doing everything they can to get around global supply chain problems, while also totally revolutionizing the battery market. Other manufacturers have stopped production of entire lines because they can't get parts/materials, focusing on their most profitable models.

 

[thewishmaster]

Couple maneuvers that have definitely improved with 10.69:

Sharp right turn with a large pillar to the left and sometimes fast-moving traffic - previously it would creep out at random so I never let it take this turn on AP. This time it used the new creep wall visualization and waited for the right moment before truly gunning it harder than I've felt it hustle. Didn't really need to accelerate that hard as there were no additional cars coming, but overall it actually handled the turn unlike before.

Sharp swerve to the left with a concrete median in between - previously it missed the lane, today it slowed down and took it correctly.

However, 2 fails of the day:

In the first example above, the car braked hard to stop maybe 3 car lengths behind the car that was in front of me. Then it swiveled the steering left and right a few times before finally jerkily approaching the turn. I have no idea why, but there is a narrow bike lane on the right-hand side, so maybe that affected it.

A different place, it was supposed to do a UPL onto a much narrower street. The beta slowed down to a crawl while waiting for oncoming cars, but then for some reason gave up and started accelerating to keep moving forward. I took over since I needed to make the left turn.

 

[sleepydoc]

You're hyper critical of FSD, and reporting things that are subjective

This.

I also watched @AlanSubie4Life 's video he keeps siting on no brake driving - there are no cars in front of him most of the time so it makes it easy to use nothing but regenerative brakes. If you're in any traffic at all (say on a freeway) it's much more difficult. Like you said, he's hypercritical and complains that it's braking too late and then braking too slow. I'd hate to be his teenager learning how to drive!

 

[sleepydoc]

I just got done with a 2 ½ hour drive up to our cabin. Started in rush hour traffic on suburban streets/trunk roads, then to a highway with heavy traffic, then interstates, then state highways. Hardly any disengagements or interventions the entire trip. The one significant one was when it was making an unprotected left onto a 2 lane highway. It paused, then started to go but started too late and would have forced some cars to slam on their brakes so I stopped it. Maybe it would have gunned it and been ok, but I wasn't going to risk it. The other interventions were mainly preference issues (like passing on the highway,) not actual safety issues.

The other thing I noticed was that phantom braking (with FSD) was dramatically better. I had virtually none whereas with 10.12 I had very frequent slowdowns. I haven't used TACC much with 69.2 to evaluate that but I'm really encouraged by this!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Hmmmm.... first turn looked great to me. When you say "a ton of brakes", it was 25MPH reduction in 5 seconds before you said "it's easing off". If it was accelerating 25MPH in 5 seconds you'd say that was WAY TOO SLOW, so how is 25MPH deceleration "a ton of brakes"? I assure you that if you drive manually and apply "a ton of brakes" the car will stop MUCH faster than that.

I’ll see if I can get the camera closer in future to capture the regen bar.

Did you notice the pulsing regen/brakes, and lack of signaling (also a moving violation, if we are talking about those)? Keep a close eye on the length of the bar, why does it shorten prematurely? It always shortens with max regen as you get slower, but that is not what I am talking about. It has a bigger jump than that.

I don’t know how many times I have to say it is about the jerk.

This is a big issue with calculating stopping distance I believe and I wish they would fix it!

Then on the turn you keep saying "gotta go!", but it was going just fine - after you completed your turn the light was still a green arrow. It wasn't like the light saw the 2 car-length gap and switched yellow, your car hit the rear lane sensors just fine and kept the light green. I've never had a green arrow signal switch because of the gap from my car.

I was concerned about making sure cars behind me made it through the light. Efficiency and courtesy! It’s not as smart as you make it out - still waiting for those smart sensors for traffic lights to just let all the turning traffic through. Getting stopped in this turn lane is pretty common unfortunately.

Then the stop sign, you say it's too slow. It slowed 30MPH in 10 seconds. Previously you said 25MPH in 5 seconds was "a ton of brakes" - where is your sweet spot, Goldilocks?

Somewhere in between! Use regen only, specifically, and minimize JERK. 50-25 in the same time as 25-0 takes three times as much stopping power, for the record - so a lot of brake wear (though in this case it was just a little bit of brake). In addition, you’ll note the first one was on a downhill as I said, while the next was on an uphill. Substantially different g forces, as we know from SS! And a big difference in safety! There really is a HUGE middle ground here due to these factors! And honestly, it is not so much about the peak g force - it is about how rapidly (think smooth) it is reached and how much it changes. There’s a reason “warped” brake rotor annoy people so much - g forces are basically the same in both cases but there is variation in g forces!!!

We know the car can measure this incline/decline and can probably predict stopping distance and effort as a result, and I wish they would start trying to normalize it in all conditions.

I don’t know how many times I have to say it is about the jerk.

I’d prefer to just use good solid regen to a stop.

This really is not complicated and I am not sure what the debate is here.

It was trying to come to a complete stop, but you weren't letting it. It had the hiccup in the newly paved road where the lane lines were oddly spray painted in before actual painting, and what looked like a lane selection problem, I grant you that.

No, what I was doing was preventing it from stopping too soon. It should roll promptly to a stop.

Then you press the accelerator at the stop because it's "too slow", but your speed never hit 0MPH, meaning you wanted it to do a rolling stop, which it can't do (they got in trouble for that).

If you watch carefully you’ll see that Tesla, even now, sometimes only comes to 1mph when stopping. It’s basically stopped, and might even be legally stopped. I believe I came to a stop on all of these stops. I wait for the car to be stationary, then I go.

You said later it was doing some weird move to the right, which is why you disengaged, but that didn't translate on video, so I'll take your word for it.

This was really on me. I was demonstrating the strategy for overriding the regen there. The wheel turned slightly more to the right than I anticipated which ended up with a disengagement. I did not report that since there was no error.

Tomorrow I’ll drive this route manually, as well as with FSD, and post the comparison.

And I’ll tweak my set speed. I would like to be able to use a different offset above certain speeds than below certain speeds since I really have no interest in speeding through residential neighborhoods (though this may not be speeding here in these specific streets due to California speed trap law (traffic study needed, post new limits, then ticket) ). Unfortunately Tesla does not offer a “comply with limits below 30mph” option. And you can’t even adjust it on the fly (something I have wanted to do before - I know because I have tried). Plus my tires have low diameter vs. stock, so my speed reads a bit high anyway (haha).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I also watched @AlanSubie4Life 's video he keeps siting on no brake driving - there are no cars in front of him most of the time so it makes it easy to use nothing but regenerative brakes. If you're in any traffic at all (say on a freeway) it's much more difficult. Like you said, he's hypercritical and complains that it's braking too late and then braking too slow. I'd hate to be his teenager learning how to drive!

One of these days I’ll post some video. As we have discussed, the key with cars in front is to allow distance, and then you can use regen only very easily. If someone cuts in, you immediately allow even more room, then repeat.

 

[KLam]

I’ll see if I can get the camera closer in future to capture the regen bar.

Did you notice the pulsing regen/brakes, and lack of signaling (also a moving violation, if we are talking about those)? Keep a close eye on the length of the bar, why does it shorten prematurely? It always shortens with max regen as you get slower, but that is not what I am talking about. It has a bigger jump than that.

I don’t know how many times I have to say it is about the jerk.

This is a big issue with calculating stopping distance I believe and I wish they would fix it!

I was concerned about making sure cars behind me made it through the light. Efficiency and courtesy! It’s not as smart as you make it out - still waiting for those smart sensors for traffic lights to just let all the turning traffic through. Getting stopped in this turn lane is pretty common unfortunately.

Somewhere in between! Use regen only, specifically, and minimize JERK. 50-25 in the same time as 25-0 takes three times as much stopping power, for the record - so a lot of brake wear (though in this case it was just a little bit of brake). In addition, you’ll note the first one was on a downhill as I said, while the next was on an uphill. Substantially different g forces, as we know from SS! And a big difference in safety! There really is a HUGE middle ground here due to these factors! And honestly, it is not so much about the peak g force - it is about how rapidly (think smooth) it is reached and how much it changes. There’s a reason “warped” brake rotor annoy people so much - g forces are basically the same in both cases but there is variation in g forces!!!

We know the car can measure this incline/decline and can probably predict stopping distance and effort as a result, and I wish they would start trying to normalize it in all conditions.

I don’t know how many times I have to say it is about the jerk.

I’d prefer to just use good solid regen to a stop.

This really is not complicated and I am not sure what the debate is here.


No, what I was doing was preventing it from stopping too soon. It should roll promptly to a stop.

If you watch carefully you’ll see that Tesla, even now, sometimes only comes to 1mph when stopping. It’s basically stopped, and might even be legally stopped. I believe I came to a stop on all of these stops. I wait for the car to be stationary, then I go.


This was really on me. I was demonstrating the strategy for overriding the regen there. The wheel turned slightly more to the right than I anticipated which ended up with a disengagement. I did not report that since there was no error.

Tomorrow I’ll drive this route manually, as well as with FSD, and post the comparison.

And I’ll tweak my set speed. I would like to be able to use a different offset above certain speeds than below certain speeds since I really have no interest in speeding through residential neighborhoods (though this may not be speeding here in these specific streets due to California speed trap law). Unfortunately Tesla does not offer a “comply with limits below 30mph” option. And you can’t even adjust it on the fly (something I have wanted to do before - I know because I have tried).

Could the pulsing regen relates to when the brake light turns on signaling to following cars that you are slowing down? Sometimes a good safety practice. Tesla indication of Brake light on/off is hard to see. I sometimes wish they have brake light indicator on the display.