FSD Beta 10.69

[S100D]

What do you mean by issue? Why would Beta driving randomly (with on destination set) seem odd to you that it was turning randomly? If you don't want Beta to drive randomly then you need to set a distention.

On some drives it will try and and predict were you are going but if it doesn't predict a pattern Beta just drives randomly.

FSD Beta driving without a destantion set

Before I got FSD Beta, I used Autopilot on the main neighborhood street to drive to my house. I was able to turn on Autopilot and my car would would stay centered between the lane lines all the way to my street where I would turn off Autopilot and turn on the street to my home. If I turn off FSD Beta and turn on Autopilot, my car will do this today.

If I have FSD Beta turned on without a destination, my car should follow the lane lines and just like when I used Autopilot. Since there is no destination set, it should follow the lane lines and not randomly turn left and right. As I said in my last message, my car only randomly turns left and right when I am driving North. If I drive South with FSD Beta turned on and no destination set, my car stays centered between the lane lines as it did with Autopilot turned on.

 

[sleepydoc]

You can usually predict where it will take you. Without a destination, it will tend to stay in the lane. The planner will still make lane changes for speed if it feels an adjacent lane is moving faster. Once the lane becomes a turn lane, as many times a right line becomes a right turn only lane, the car will turn right. The car tends to favor right turns, so if it approaches a T-junction, it will probably turn right. However, if it's in the left lane and that lane becomes a left turn lane, it will turn left.

It's the automotive equivalent of turning on predictive text on your iPhone and then just tapping the suggested word to see what kind of sentence you get!

 

[sleepydoc]

Before I got FSD Beta, I used Autopilot on the main neighborhood street to drive to my house. I was able to turn on Autopilot and my car would would stay centered between the lane lines all the way to my street where I would turn off Autopilot and turn on the street to my home. If I turn off FSD Beta and turn on Autopilot, my car will do this today.

If I have FSD Beta turned on without a destination, my car should follow the lane lines and just like when I used Autopilot. Since there is no destination set, it should follow the lane lines and not randomly turn left and right. As I said in my last message, my car only randomly turns left and right when I am driving North. If I drive South with FSD Beta turned on and no destination set, my car stays centered between the lane lines as it did with Autopilot turned on.

Autopilot simply stays in the lane and attempts to go straight. With no FSD, it was limited to streets with lane markings but would try to continue if the lane markings disappeared. Comparing AP behavior to FSD is really pretty pointless.

As others have stated above, turning on FSD without a destination is somewhat akin to getting into a cab and telling the driver 'just drive' FSD has no idea where to go and probably follows some algorithm but no one knows for sure. Regardless, if you don't set a destination you shouldn't be surprised, no matter where it takes you.

 

[D Good]

I had posted earlier that with 25.2 my Model Y randomly changed into a right turn lane when it needed to go straight through an intersection. Tried it again last night under the same conditions and this time it did fine. It managed to get me home with no interventions. Its behavior was very clunky compared to me driving, but it did it. I did disengage the system when we approached the community gate because I don't know what it might do and don't want to crash into the gate.

It crashes into “pole” style gates, but will stop for fence style gates.

 

[D Good]

Does anyone know why the car will roll unprotected lefts with a green light (solid green, not a green arrow), but makes a complete stop before turning when the light is a blinking yellow arrow? This behavior is very annoying as human drivers always roll both.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Does anyone know why the car will roll unprotected lefts with a green light (solid green, not a green arrow), but makes a complete stop before turning when the light is a blinking yellow arrow? This behavior is very annoying as human drivers always roll both.

This is only wrong if the intersection is clear and the turn can be made.

Would not be surprised if they don’t get it right….but a flashing yellow arrow means:

Only proceed into the intersection and make your turn when you are clear to do so. It is illegal to proceed into the intersection and wait:

Anyway I am sure FSD will get that wrong, but that is a reason to stop. Unlike with solid greens (probably rules differ from state to state on proceeding on solid green when turn is not clear - in California it seems legal.

 

[Mardak]

Could be it acts differently and stays straight on a more main thoroughfare road but that is not where I tried

FSD Beta drives based on what it thinks it sees. I've had some instances of navigation wanting to continue straight and FSD Beta suddenly decides it needs to make a left turn. Just today, there was enough snow/ice in just the right/wrong place to make FSD Beta think there was no road ahead and needed to "continue" left as if the road curved that way.

So similarly without a navigation destination, FSD Beta will drive based on what it thinks is the most likely path to continue. Even without snow, I've had FSD Beta want to make a left turn to a side street when the current straight road started going up a hill. In other cases, at an angled T/Y intersection, navigation wants to make a left turn but vision can't see the left side of the intersection, so it shows a blue path line making a right turn until it gets up to the stop line.

 

[EVNow]

Does anyone know why the car will roll unprotected lefts with a green light (solid green, not a green arrow), but makes a complete stop before turning when the light is a blinking yellow arrow? This behavior is very annoying as human drivers always roll both.

I think this has to do with "yield". Currently FSD is set to stop before proceeding at "yields" ... this creates problems like this and also right turns and roundabouts.

 

[kabin]

FSD Beta drives based on what it thinks it sees. I've had some instances of navigation wanting to continue straight and FSD Beta suddenly decides it needs to make a left turn. Just today, there was enough snow/ice in just the right/wrong place to make FSD Beta think there was no road ahead and needed to "continue" left as if the road curved that way.

That happened to me this morning in clear weather, dry roads, no snow, sunshine from the back. Navigation was straight ahead for the next 2 miles but FSDb decided to initiate a right turn signal. I was in the right most lane next to a canal with no place to turn right. I disengaged for fear of a hard FSDb initiated brake.

 

[EVNow]

That happened to me this morning in clear weather, dry roads, no snow, sunshine from the back. Navigation was straight ahead for the next 2 miles but FSDb decided to initiate a right turn signal. I was in the right most lane next to a canal with no place to turn right. I disengaged for fear of a hard FSDb initiated brake.

Tesla needs to tackle these map / gps / planning issues.

I'm surprised they have not worked on simple enhanced maps that they can crowd-source like MobilEye. I think they would eventually need to do this because maps have too many issues. Humans drive either knowing the routes or if they completely rely on maps they will also be confused and slow down etc when the maps are wrong.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Currently FSD is set to stop before proceeding at "yields" ... this creates problems like this and also right turns and roundabouts.

These are different situations though. When there is traffic to yield to, then for a green light you can proceed into the intersection (at least in some states). For the flashing yellow arrow you must stop outside the intersection (as far as I can tell this is true in all states, though have only checked a couple).

 

[EVNow]

These are different situations though. When there is traffic to yield to, then for a green light you can proceed into the intersection (at least in some states). For the flashing yellow arrow you must stop outside the intersection (as far as I can tell this is true in all states, though have only checked a couple).

No difference in many states. I just did an internet search - and I see atleast a couple saying you can enter the intersection if safe and wait.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

No difference in many states. I just did an internet search - and I see atleast a couple saying you can enter the intersection if safe and wait.

Which states? I was looking at NC (OP location) and OR specifically which are very clear you cannot enter intersection on FYA unless you are clear to make the turn.

 

[EVNow]

Which states? I was looking at NC (OP location) and OR specifically which are very clear you cannot enter intersection on FYA unless you are clear to make the turn.

Austin and NV, WI ... and many others.

I just searched for "yellow flashing light left turn wait at intersection".

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Austin and NV, WI ... and many others.

I just searched for "yellow flashing light left turn wait at intersection".

WI you must first wait for it to be safe to turn.

https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/safety/safety-eng/flash-yellow/flashing-yellow.pdf

“A flashing yellow arrow means a driver may make a left turn if there is no oncoming traffic and there are no pedestrians crossing the street.”

NV you must first wait.

https://www.dot.nv.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/106/636178611523400000

“Drivers should yield to oncoming traffic and pedestrians. When it is safe, proceed with caution through the intersection.”

TX is the same:

https://www.sugarlandtx.gov/DocumentCenter/View/3868/Flashing-Yellow-Arrows-Brochure?bidId=

“Drivers should not proceed into the intersection until there
is adequate space in oncoming traffic to make a safe left turn. Drivers who enter the intersection and wait are no longer detected by the traffic signal and may be caught in the intersection when the light changes.”
I have not seen one yet which says you can proceed before it is safe to complete the turn.

Note that proceeding into the intersection is part of a left turn!

So, it is not always required to stop at the line (as FSD may do - no idea), but you must do so if you cannot complete the turn. So quite different than a solid green light.

 

[Supcom]

WI you must first wait for it to be safe to turn.

https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/safety/safety-eng/flash-yellow/flashing-yellow.pdf

“A flashing yellow arrow means a driver may make a left turn if there is no oncoming traffic and there are no pedestrians crossing the street.”
NV you must first wait.

https://www.dot.nv.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/106/636178611523400000

“Drivers should yield to oncoming traffic and pedestrians. When it is safe, proceed with caution through the intersection.”
TX is the same:

https://www.sugarlandtx.gov/DocumentCenter/View/3868/Flashing-Yellow-Arrows-Brochure?bidId=

“Drivers should not proceed into the intersection until there
is adequate space in oncoming traffic to make a safe left turn. Drivers who enter the intersection and wait are no longer detected by the traffic signal and may be caught in the intersection when the light changes.”
I have not seen one yet which says you can proceed before it is safe to complete the turn.

Note that proceeding into the intersection is part of turning.

I like to look up the actual laws as opposed to relying on a municipality brochure. For Texas, the relevant code is:

Sec. 544.008. FLASHING SIGNALS. (a) The operator of a vehicle facing a flashing red signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. In the absence of a crosswalk, the operator shall stop at the place nearest the intersecting roadway where the operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway. The right to proceed is subject to the rules applicable after stopping at a stop sign.

(b) The operator of a vehicle facing a flashing yellow signal may proceed through an intersection or past the signal only with caution.

(c) This section does not apply at a railroad crossing.

Seems that Texas state law does not explicitly prohibit entering an intersection without an exit opportunity. Though the comment made in the Sugarland brochure should be noted that if you do proceed into the intersection, the traffic sensors may not see you. You may never get a green arrow and will need to exit the intersection after the light turns red. This is legal, though not the best situation.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I like to look up the actual laws as opposed to relying on a municipality brochure. For Texas, the relevant code is:

Sec. 544.008. FLASHING SIGNALS. (a) The operator of a vehicle facing a flashing red signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. In the absence of a crosswalk, the operator shall stop at the place nearest the intersecting roadway where the operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway. The right to proceed is subject to the rules applicable after stopping at a stop sign.

(b) The operator of a vehicle facing a flashing yellow signal may proceed through an intersection or past the signal only with caution.

(c) This section does not apply at a railroad crossing.

Seems that Texas state law does not explicitly prohibit entering an intersection without an exit opportunity. Though the comment made in the Sugarland brochure should be noted that if you do proceed into the intersection, the traffic sensors may not see you. You may never get a green arrow and will need to exit the intersection after the light turns red. This is legal, though not the best situation.

Yeah, seems like in Texas it may well be not prohibited. It seems not explicitly prohibited. In most of the states I have looked at it is prohibited though.

Still: It is frustratingly not specific about this obvious question in many cases, but in the end it comes down to following the rules explicitly - that you must first wait for clearing of crosswalks and oncoming traffic before turning (which of course includes entering the intersection - this seems to be what trips people up and it’s annoying that the DOTs don’t add extra verbiage to make this very clear).

 

[sleepydoc]

These are different situations though. When there is traffic to yield to, then for a green light you can proceed into the intersection (at least in some states). For the flashing yellow arrow you must stop outside the intersection (as far as I can tell this is true in all states, though have only checked a couple).

Not true in MN. Be careful about making generalizations.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Not true in MN. Be careful about making generalizations.

I made no generalizations! I was extremely clear that it was not allowed in the states I looked at and was not extending to other states. (You can see I said “as far as I can tell this is true in all states, but I only checked two” - so was clearly not making a statement about other states that I had not checked!)

Minnesota is ambiguous but looks like it is not allowed (you can only make the turn after traffic is clear). Note the difference in language - for a solid yellow you must COMPLETE the turn (so it is clear that proceeding into the intersection is part of making the turn).

There is that ask-a-trooper article - but that is also ambiguous

Flashing Yellow Arrow Traffic Signals - Traffic Engineering - MnDOT

Flashing yellow arrow traffic signals - information and contacts

www.dot.state.mn.us

Anyway MN a bit ambiguous.

Note the difference in language vs. Oregon (where it is most certainly prohibited to make the movement if you are not turning):

https://www.oregon.gov/odot/Engineering/Documents_TrafficStandards/Signal_Flashing-Yellow-Brochure-734-2632.pdf

“ A flashing yellow arrow means you may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the flashing yellow arrow. You must first yield to oncoming traffic, bicyclists, and crossing pedestrians. Carefully determine an adequate gap before making your turn.”

In any case all of this probably does not explain the FSD behavior. I am curious how it treats these cases though! I don’t have any such signals here so I have no idea.

 

[EVNow]

I wonder whether AP team has a legal advisor who looks at all these laws and tells the team what to do ... or do they just wing it

"Hey, this is how I drive and see others driving..."

ps : For eg. in companies I've worked, there is a legal team that advice us on privacy laws. We don't read any rules or laws - just go by what the legal team says.