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FSD Beta 10.69

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I wonder whether AP team has a legal advisor who looks at all these laws and tells the team what to do ... or do they just wing it ;)

"Hey, this is how I drive and see others driving..."

ps : For eg. in companies I've worked, there is a legal team that advice us on privacy laws. We don't read any rules or laws - just go by what the legal team says.
Some of these obscure and localized traffic laws are only important if there's either a related accident or the police issue a ticket. In my opinion, they are well down the extensive laundry list of possible infractions.
 
Experienced an odd interaction today: Driving on a road with one lane in each direction and occasional left-turn lanes. A bus stopped in just the right spot that when FSDb started maneuvering around the bus, it found itself fully in a left-turn lane, and tried to start turning left.

It's like it completely forgot it was trying to work around a stopped vehicle and continue forward as soon as it identified it was in a left turn lane.
 
I think this has to do with "yield". Currently FSD is set to stop before proceeding at "yields" ... this creates problems like this and also right turns and roundabouts.
Funny you mention that, today I’ve noticed it “creep” through a few yield signs, not stop, then creep, but actually handle a yield sign like I would have. Also noticed 25.2 pulling into traffic more naturally. So, as the last car passes in front of me, I’m starting to go already. This is how most humans drive, I was surprised. This was also near the Rochester NY service center (I had both repeater cams and coax cables replaced today).
 
I had a few drives today in Austin, where there are currently a lot of fallen icy trees on the road or trees with very low hanging branches under the weight of ice.

I must say the car did very well detecting such obstacles and driving around them. When fallen trees completely obscured a road the car just stopped in front of them or turned if there was an available turn nearby.

Thus, I assume that occupancy networks are really working and can detect some sort of large "mass" of stuff. However, fallen trees are not displayed on the screen in any way.

One of the issues I have encountered if tree brushes are close to road surface at approximately the height of the car, this situation is not treated as obstacle and so it is possible the roof of the car would be scratched as a result. In such situation I had to take control to avoid such branches.
 
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So, another run-around in 25.2. The report:
  1. Three-lane divided highway with lights, FSD-b active. On ramp onto the highway is a fourth lane that, after going through the light there, merges into the right-most normal travel lane. But one can turn right at the light, too. Car is in that fourth lane, is blocked from entering the travel lane by an oncoming pickup truck - and decides to hang a right into the shopping center at the light, then gets completely stuck, at least in terms of where to go. Normal driver would have waited for the truck to clear, then used the forward lane to merge in as per normal. So, idiocy. That was the bad part.
  2. The good part: Once back on the Major highway, the car drove itself some 15 miles, switching lanes to avoid slow traffic as necessary, stopped when lights were red, went when lights were green, and pretty much behaved itself. Took a cloverleaf off-ramp, got on a new, double lane road, and proceeded through progressively narrower portions of the road, switching lanes as necessary to keep out of left-turn or right-turn only lanes, eventually driving right into the parking lot of the office to which I was going.
  3. Repeated #2 going back, this time without weird on-ramp problems, including left turns at a couple of lights in heavy traffic, no problems. Only problem: When pulling 50 (the nominal limit) for no discernible reason slowed to 38. Braking, but not hard. Some urging with the pedal got it back up to speed. I've been seeing this a bit more often on 25.2. But, having said that: Got all the way to the house without having to try and take over, plus or minus that gas pedal, that same 15 miles or so.
  4. @AlanSubie4Life stated that he noticed oscillatory behavior on braking when starting at higher speeds. He's right. My only quibble is that, really, I hadn't noticed it actually doing that until he had pointed it out. So, this is not a neck-breaking gas-it/brake it/gas-it oscillation, it's quite a bit milder. I agree that this isn't how humans do it, unless they're brain-dead, but it's probably not high on the list of Things To Be Fixed. My preference: Get the, "swing wide right on a left turn" bug fixed first, since that'll make me intervene each and every time it happens.

On another Tesla-related topic: Had a visit from a mobile service rep. Main problem: Pretty sure that when a family member flew in for Xmas and was given the key card to get around with, said member handed me back the wrong key-card, the one for his car on the other coast. In the meantime, thought I had a dead key card. The app said $50 - but that was only if the dead key card was actually dead, which it turned out it wasn't. Turns out (and you all knew this, but I didn't) that one can take a completely random Tesla key card, place it on the spot on the console, and, using a good key-card, pair the random key-card with the car. And then delete the extra key-card. All good fun, the family member's been notified, and will presumably re-key the Wrong Card to his car, so we'll all be good.

And then the good one. This 2018 M3 has had an issue with the pillar trim. When they built the thing, a plastic locator guide pin on the trim didn't hit the hole it was supposed to go into and got bent 'way over. Even in that state, the people at the factory were able to pop the trim into place. Until about a month after I got the car, happened to hit the trim on the way in/out, and it popped loose. Popped it in again, later it popped out, and so on. Called a service tech, they popped it in; but, a day later, lather, rinse, repeat.

Finally took it somewhat apart, got the guide pin straightened without breaking it, and popped it all in. And, a week later, it popped out again. Argh.

Finally got busy a few months ago and disassembled everything. Figured I needed new snaps. Was in at Tesla for a recall, asked about the snaps. Service Advisor took a look, then later told me I needed a brand-new trim panel, a couple hundred bucks 😩. Been stewing about that.

So, with the local mobile tech present, he asked me, "Any other problems?" and I told him the story, warning him that there was probably nothing he could do.

I should just tell stories. He grinned, moved the car seat forward, pulled off the rubber moulding around both sides of the pillar, popped the trim panels loose, and pointed out that the plastic snaps that hold the panel in place to the car body were badly worn. Which, according to him, happens when they go in/out/in/out a lot. Walked over to his car, pulled out a half-dozen of these snaps from his private stash, stuck the new ones in, pushed all the parts back where they were supposed to be, and now everything is solid as a rock. No charge. For that, or for showing an idiot driver how to program Tesla key cards.
 
I didn’t really clarify what FSD does in my post about forward facing UPL. Let me elaborate.

In both situations there is no oncoming traffic.

Situation 1: Solid green. The car does not stop before making the unprotected left, ie it “rolls” it.

Situation 2: Blinking yellow. The car approaches the intersection, stops at the stop line for a brief moment, then proceeds to make the turn.


It should be noted that if there is oncoming traffic, in both a solid green and yellow situation, the car approaches the stop line, stops, then proceeds into the intersection to wait. It sounds like in many states it is illegal to do this on a blinking yellow. I do not know the law here.

It personally wish that it would just wait at the stop line. It often never gets the chance to turn, and then the light turns red and I look like an idiot just sitting in the intersection.

Also, if the light goes from red to solid green or a blinking yellow arrow, the car seems to accelerate quite harshly into the intersection, ignoring the cross traffic that was previously stopped at their red but is now starting to proceed forward. Essentially it cuts them off. Has anyone else noticed this behavior?

People forget this product is 3 years into development ( longer, actually) and we are still facing basic issues with the fundamentals of driving. I don’t think that if you have a HW3 Tesla you should expect your car to ever drive itself. Just my take though.
 
Experienced an odd interaction today: Driving on a road with one lane in each direction and occasional left-turn lanes. A bus stopped in just the right spot that when FSDb started maneuvering around the bus, it found itself fully in a left-turn lane, and tried to start turning left.

It's like it completely forgot it was trying to work around a stopped vehicle and continue forward as soon as it identified it was in a left turn lane.
This fits my experience - it’s like FSD knows it needs to go straight but finds itself in a turn lane then feels obligated to turn.

There’s a section on a road near me where the lane swerves slightly to accommodate a left turn lane. About half the time FSD will swerve too far and end up in the right turn lane, freak out for a bit and then end up turning right, even though it knows it’s supposed to go straight.

1675347017352.png
 
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Experienced an odd interaction today: Driving on a road with one lane in each direction and occasional left-turn lanes. A bus stopped in just the right spot that when FSDb started maneuvering around the bus, it found itself fully in a left-turn lane, and tried to start turning left.

It's like it completely forgot it was trying to work around a stopped vehicle and continue forward as soon as it identified it was in a left turn lane.
I think FSD decided it was too late to change lane and go straight - so it will turn left and then reroute ...

Its similar to how it misses turns sometimes and reroutes.
 
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Navigation was straight ahead for the next 2 miles but FSDb decided to initiate a right turn signal
Was it similar to this situation from AI DRIVR where navigation was to continue straight? Here the road ahead is slightly offset to the left (and visualization shows a curb directly ahead), but the lead vehicle prevents a clear view, so FSD Beta predicts the current lane is forced to curve right and turns on the right turn signal for the intersection. In response to thinking that this lane cannot go straight, it intermittently incorrectly turns on the left turn signal to switch out of this lane.

straight right curve.jpg



Only after the light turns green and moving forwards basically to the crosswalk does it realize the lead car is going straight and it too can go straight. But until then, it kept thinking the only option was a right turn.
 
FSDb is regressing for me. I’ve been doing the same route since 2021 and yesterday had the highest number of disengagements ever. It tried to run two red lights and pulled across a blind unprotected intersection right in front of a truck.

View attachment 902512

FSD tracking Google doc
Suggestions - change from D/Mi to Miles/Disengagement (which is the std, and easier to understand). Also note the total distance. Looks like you drive about 20 to 30 miles on the route ?

It would be interesting to see a video - I wonder why you intervene / disengage that many times.
 
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Suggestions - change from D/Mi to Miles/Disengagement (which is the std, and easier to understand). Also note the total distance. Looks like you drive about 20 to 30 miles on the route ?

It would be interesting to see a video - I wonder why you intervene / disengage that many times.

At least for now it’s so close to one disengagement per mile (or greater!) that it doesn’t matter. If the car can ever go a mile a two without a disengagement I’ll change the format.

My threshold for interventions relates to safety or honking from other motorists.

For example, after turning right on 1st Street (segment one) the car will come to a dead stop in the middle of 1st Street between the intersections of Toluca St and Glendale Blvd. I have to hit the accelerator to avoid being rear-ended (and to proceed at all) so that’s an intervention.

I only disengage if a collision is likely. Yesterday it wanted to pull into oncoming traffic about eight times in a row in segment 4, for example. I’d reengage FSDb and it would immediately try to pull into busy oncoming traffic. Rinse, repeat.