FSD Beta 10.69

[Silicon Desert]

A few more gems from my drive home last night:

Normally I would never do this, since it's extremely inconsiderate to other drivers (and dangerous). I tried to make sure there was enough space to the vehicle behind, but since it slows down FAR too much, there ended up being not enough margin (should take corner at 25mph, and should move to the right!). On the upside, the subsequent left turn is much better than prior versions (though extremely slow, at least it doesn't dive across the corner and pretend there is no oncoming traffic around the blind corner ahead). How is this remotely usable? Why does the car not enter the bike lane? This poor Mercedes had to put up with me for miles (note it is the same one as in the last video).


Watch that regen bar!!! "Not efficient" (Also, not fast!)
More of this quality behavior, the same place as in the video from yesterday (showing it does approximately the same thing every time in this spot):


Watch that regen bar!!!
This time it made it into these left turn lanes (failed yesterday), but then it jammed on the regen for absolutely no reason, followed by a random walk across lanes. The FCW beeping (for the red light I think) is because it was left in TACC.

Relaxing? Usable?

To be clear, these are areas where I would call it "not usable." There's just no utility. I can press the accelerator on the first one to solve the problem, but why not just drive myself and get into the bike lane, where people won't hit me?

Informative. So what do you think is the reason the car performed that way in that area ?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Informative. So what do you think is the reason the car performed that way in that area ?

I don't think there's anything too special about these locations. The double left turn lane it has always struggled with to some degree. It just loves to go too fast there (Black Mountain Road & Mercy Road); it's like it doesn't see that the light is red. In prior builds it has made a beeline for the curb, which is kind of fun, just to see what happens.

For the right turn onto the residential streets, it's never moved to the right, and it's always slowed down too much, and signaling is hit or miss. Not really any change for 10.69.1.1 (except for the subsequent left, which is much better though dog slow). For this turn, in the past, if I'm using beta, I just push the accelerator around the corner to make it go fast, but can only do this if there is no turning traffic since it results in a wide slalom turn.

For the freeway exit (Black Mountain Road off of 56E), that's just straight typical behavior (you see this sort of thing in all the FSD Beta videos; everyone who uses FSD Beta deals with it, they just have varying degrees of tolerance for it). Slow down, stop slowing down, slow down, add some accelerator, etc. This is an uphill exit, which maybe provides some additional challenge for it? I'm not sure. It's quite bad at it!

 

[Dewg]

I don't have 10.69 yet, so I cannot comment on problems that version has.

However, this is terrible:

“ except in the most trivial driving situations (where it does moderately well - marked roads, no turns, no traffic, no pedestrians, no traffic control). In these situations, my wife will not notice it is being used”

What you're saying is that the car doesn't do well, but only moderately well in that scenario (which is essentially a well-marked airport runway).

If it can't even do that scenario perfectly, we're doomed.

 

[EVNow]

I guess that after reading some of the posts here, my definition of dangerous has been completely wrong all these decades. I thought that dangerous was trying to land on an aircraft carrier at night in the middle of a storm after being shot at in Vietnam

Just imagine how dangerous it was for the Vietnamese ...

 

[EVNow]

If it can't even do that scenario perfectly, we're doomed.

Don't read too much into Mr 10% Empty's comments

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Don't read too much into Mr 10% Empty's comments

Yes, I recommend watching the videos instead.

I’ll probably post a few more. My commitment to you all is to keep production value low.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Getting my car rear-ended and totaled because FSD Beta is being dumb is pretty dangerous. To the car. Not so much to me in the example above, I probably would have been fine.

yea, I go for that. The wife would say it is even more dumb for the person behind you being so close as to potentially cause such a problem..... She's worked on hundreds of such accidents. Let's hope FSD won't continue to cause such issues. I keep a foot near the accelerator and a hand near the disengage for just such situations and sounds like you do to. ps. hope to be in your beautiful part of the country again soon.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What you're saying is that the car doesn't do well, but only moderately well in that scenario (which is essentially a well-marked airport runway).

I disagree. This applies to many scenarios, rural roads, etc. This situation is quite common and FSD Beta will be quite usable there. Of course, AP is also available there, with speed restrictions.

The key is to have no turns, no traffic, no traffic control, and no people.

 

[sleepydoc]

This isn’t complicated:

“ except in the most trivial driving situations (where it does moderately well - marked roads, no turns, no traffic, no pedestrians, no traffic control). In these situations, my wife will not notice it is being used”

If that’s not crystal clear that that is a useful use case, I am not sure what to say. I am not sure how I could be any more positive about those scenarios.

Exactly - you said it's only useful as a glorified cruise control that had to be disabled as soon as you need to turn. We specifically disputed that. I use it to drive to and from work all the time. Stopping at lights, turning, merging. Exactly what it's intended for. I've also used it to drive from down town Minneapolis out to our home in the suburbs, albeit not in rush hour.

 

[Dewg]

I disagree. This applies to many scenarios, rural roads, etc. This situation is quite common and FSD Beta will be quite usable there. Of course, AP is also available there, with speed restrictions.

You described a long, straight, desert road with no other vehicle in sight. And you said it would do "moderately well", meaning it would still have issues. We're doomed.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You described a long, straight, desert road with no other vehicle in sight. And you said it would do "moderately well", meaning it would still have issues. We're doomed.

A little dramatic! A year or two of work on the fundamentals and it will likely be pretty decent. It’s way better than it was!

 

[2101Guy]

A little dramatic! A year or two of work on the fundamentals and it will likely be pretty decent. It’s way better than it was!

 

[Yelobird]

Yes, I recommend watching the videos instead.

I’ll probably post a few more. My commitment to you all is to keep production value low.

Guess your judgement of failure and analysis is different then most. Watching your videos, you flag speed up, slow down over and over based on a line moving but in reality the speed output remained the same and only decreased (as it should) as you neared the end. Just seems like your making it a bit more dramatic then what is really happening. (My opinion). Second video your show drama that is slowing down to soon and to much Yet it is still near 40 mph coming up on a 90 degree turn. i like most prefer to Not go into a 90 degree turn at full speed locking the brakes to rail a turn like an Indy driver. Again, a Bit of over drama that Actually without your verbal commentary looked like a decent drive. (Again opinion)

I value your insight and contributions. Yes we all want perfection some day but you rarely just say something is just Good. Most statements are always followed by some technical Over analysis refinement that just doesn’t Need that much attention and is Often just confusing to most or negates your entire point. Like “Useless”. That is an end statement evaluation! Nothing your write After that point is of any use or value. Again, I like many appreciate your input and obsessive research on a topic we are all interested in but sometimes good is enough of an answer…..

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

slow down over and over based on a line moving but in reality the speed output remained the same and only decreased (as it should) as you neared the end.

These power shifts are highly noticeable. I would point out that speed changes of 2-3 mph are frequently flagged as phantom braking. The speeds here changed by at least 4mph. The speed did indeed change! Humans are amazingly sensitive to jerk.

What is the reason for this behavior? Is there a good reason for it to behave this way?

Second video your show drama that is slowing down to soon and to much Yet it is still near 40 mph coming up on a 90 degree turn. i like most prefer to Not go into a 90 degree turn at full speed locking the brakes to rail a turn like an Indy drive

if you are referring to the right turn, why did it not get into the bike lane, or at least to the right of the lane to signal to traffic behind that I was turning? Why did it not signal well in advance, as required by law? (I had to signal.)

I don’t think you need to be an Indy car driver. You can slow down promptly to 20mph, smoothly, because traffic on this road moves fast. Signaling would have been very helpful.

If you are referring to the left turn:
The light was red. There was an enormous amount of time and room to slow down. Why did it add power before entering the left turn lane? Why did it apply the friction brakes (you can see that)?

Definitely no drama here. Just stating the facts of what happened. I am highly confident that 95% of drivers would be bothered by this behavior.

It’s very clear that video does not convey this well, except for the most astute observers.

Like “Useless”. That is an end statement evaluation! Nothing your write After that point is of any use or value.

Seems that people are sensitive to this term so I will limit the use. My issue here is utility. It’s important that FSD Beta have utility. I think in more complicated environments right now, it is hard to make the argument that that utility is where it needs to be.

 

[willow_hiller]

Definitely no drama here. Just stating the facts of what happened.

In your defense, I've gone back and looked at Dash-cam footage of events I thought were very dramatic in the moment, but they never look as exciting on camera. I think most of the difference is down to the fact that you cannot experience the G-forces in a video.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

In your defense, I've gone back and looked at Dash-cam footage of events I thought were very dramatic in the moment, but they never look as exciting on camera. I think most of the difference is down to the fact that you cannot experience the G-forces in a video.

Yes, that is why the regen bar is so important (they have made it fatter and easier to see!). Users should calibrate themselves by carefully (when safe) observing this bar when driving themselves, and understand how a particular movement and length of this bar “feels.” Should also do a smooth manual stop themselves and observe how the bar behaves!

Then when viewing videos it’s a lot easier to cross-reference that and understand the smoothness of the drive.

Dashcam videos are basically impossible to “feel” anything from. At least with cabin footage you have the speedometer and the approximation to an accelerometer.

I’ll post comparison videos of an FSD stop and a good manual stop at some point. In a good stop, to first order, the regen bar slowly increases in length monotonically to a maximum, then monotonically decreases in length.

 

[momo3605]

Watching your videos, you flag speed up, slow down over and over based on a line moving but in reality the speed output remained the same

When I slow down on a freeway off-ramp, i don't pulse the accelerator, i use light regen to get me to the end of the ramp. FSD Beta is pretty inefficient, and i notice at least 10-15% worse Wh/mi performance on FSD beta compared to driving myself.

 

[Yelobird]

These power shifts are highly noticeable. I would point out that speed changes of 2-3 mph are frequently flagged as phantom braking. The speeds here changed by at least 4mph. The speed did indeed change! Humans are amazingly sensitive to jerk.

What is the reason for this behavior? Is there a good reason for it to behave this way?


if you are referring to the right turn, why did it not get into the bike lane, or at least to the right of the lane to signal to traffic behind that I was turning? Why did it not signal well in advance, as required by law? (I had to signal.)

I don’t think you need to be an Indy car driver. You can slow down promptly to 20mph, smoothly, because traffic on this road moves fast. Signaling would have been very helpful.

If you are referring to the left turn:
The light was red. There was an enormous amount of time and room to slow down. Why did it add power before entering the left turn lane? Why did it apply the friction brakes (you can see that)?

Definitely no drama here. Just stating the facts of what happened. I am highly confident that 95% of drivers would be bothered by this behavior.

It’s very clear that video does not convey this well, except for the most astute observers.


Seems that people are sensitive to this term so I will limit the use. My issue here is utility. It’s important that FSD Beta have utility. I think in more complicated environments right now, it is hard to make the argument that that utility is where it needs to be.

While my intent was Not to beat this into semantics I will simply clarify My view specifically video 2. Regardless of what I see the bar do from the start at 70 MPH at no point in the video did it Increase speed. It constantly went down progressively. Not 50-60-40-45…. exaggerated example! While the bar going to the right can be assumed as speeding up I viewed it as minimizing regen which I do myself so it doesn’t aggressively decelerate like you would in an ICE car. Again, just my view of the video! I was not there which is why I rarely Interpret data by video drives to come to a conclusion.

 

[Bladerskb]

Multiple safety disengagement (including running red light)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

While my intent was Not to beat this into semantics I will simply clarify My view specifically video 2. Regardless of what I see the bar do from the start at 70 MPH at no point in the video did it Increase speed. It constantly went down progressively. Not 50-60-40-45…. exaggerated example! While the bar going to the right can be assumed as speeding up I viewed it as minimizing regen which I do myself so it doesn’t aggressively decelerate like you would in an ICE car. Again, just my view of the video! I was not there which is why I rarely Interpret data by video drives to come to a conclusion.

I see what you meant now. The thing is, what is important is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). You (roughly) want to see a uniform deceleration (which would be zero jerk except for the beginning and end). That’s not what we see here.

Humans are not particularly sensitive to acceleration/deceleration, because we are used to gravity. Those forces just make it feel like gravity from a different direction, no big deal. But changes (jerk) are problematic. And that is what you see. Deceleration occurs, then drops to zero, then it occurs again, etc. Whether or not you are speeding up or not is not the issue.

Anyway, I think it is pretty clear from that video that that is a terrible stopping strategy. If I get a chance I’ll videotape myself doing this off-ramp.