sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I took it to mean that there were cases where it doesn’t stop at all, just blowing right through the intersecction.
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FSD Beta 10.69
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Sounds like Chuck just learned what all of us who read the CA DMV emails from 2020 already knew Tesla was saying about the limits of fsdb capabilities.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
I think if that were the case, they would have said something in the Recall Report document. But it only says "2) the perceived duration of the vehicle’s static position at certain intersections with a stop sign, particularly when the intersection is clear of any other road users;"
So taking those two descriptions together, the only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that the perceived duration of stopping at stop signs is too short for the NHTSA, so they consider it to be not "coming to a complete stop."
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yeah, based on this, seems like it comes down to the incorrect speedometer display, which never goes to zero if the car decides to proceed. That would fit Tesla’s description, I guess.
Durwood101
Member
Another thing that I didnt see inside the NHTSA docs is the speed limits inside residential neighborhoods, I posted a while ago on this, and the speed limit to my understanding at least here in CA is its 25.......I know in certain places speeds up to 25 mph might be reasonable and FSD following that speed limit guideline would seem appropriate, however I dont think around where I live anyone really drives that fast, much less thorugh turns, and especially on a road that comes to a cul de sac. FSDB should recognize that inside communities, it cant set the speed up to 25 mph even though its following speed limits of 25 mph, 25 mph is waaay too fast to start with, should be more like 10-15. I know none of this matters really in the big picture, but its something I wish NHTSA would address because Tesla prob wont, at least it hasnt up until this point.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure under what regulatory ability NHTSA would try and enforce "what guy in neighborhood thinks should be the speed limit instead of what it actually is" though.
To be clear I'm not saying you don't have a real concern about 25 being too fast- but local governments have the ability to set speed limits on local roads--and are supposed to do so based on what is safe and appropriate for the area-- the federal government does not and I think expecting them to is not a useful route for resolution vs discussing with local government as they're the only ones that can really do what you want..... expecting ANYBODY to create a "not the actual speed limit but what it probably ought to be then enforcing THAT" is even further afield of anything realistic as a solution.
To be clear I'm not saying you don't have a real concern about 25 being too fast- but local governments have the ability to set speed limits on local roads--and are supposed to do so based on what is safe and appropriate for the area-- the federal government does not and I think expecting them to is not a useful route for resolution vs discussing with local government as they're the only ones that can really do what you want..... expecting ANYBODY to create a "not the actual speed limit but what it probably ought to be then enforcing THAT" is even further afield of anything realistic as a solution.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
When embedded it chops off the bottom (stupid long tweets).
I am confident that Elon will confirm that HW3 is still robotaxi at Investor Day and dispel Chuck's doubts.
Does anyone actually believe Elon goes to the FSD team and says "make the best driver assist possible!" Not a chance, he tells them to write hardcore robotaxi software.
Durwood101
Member
I hear what you are saying as well but to me, it IS a safety concern, no different than the car traveling through a school zone or passing a school bus when lights are flashing, its about an "awareness" of observing signs and where its actually driving.......map data is important to this problem as well. I dont want to get into any arguments because all of us would like FSD to be better in lots of ways, this is just something that isnt going to get fixed with county regulators or posted speed limits given that FSD is reading speed limit signs in day to day usage.
Tesla sets the speed limit within my small (2 streets) subdivision at 55mph. It also sets the speed limit within my driveway at the same speed.
You are acting as if Elon has given up on Robotaxi service with existing hardware. He has not. In fact, he has recently double downed on it.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yep, never doubt Elon. Looking forward to monetization.When embedded it chops off the bottom (stupid long tweets).
View attachment 911942
I am confident that Elon will confirm that HW3 is still robotaxi at Investor Day and dispel Chuck's doubts.
Does anyone actually believe Elon goes to the FSD team and says "make the best driver assist possible!" Not a chance, he tells them to write hardcore robotaxi software.
Durwood101
Member
ok, good to know Im not the only one with this issue.......build the logic into FSD and i'm sure a lot of problems go away......here's to hope....lol.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, I am acting as if Tesla specifically said, in late 2020, that fsdb was an L2 product and always would be. Because they did.
Robotaxi will be using a future piece of software, not fsdb- though it would likely iterate on many of the things in fsb. Tesla still plans to develop that later software of course.
We've known this since at least those DMV emails I mention- but chuck seems surprised to hear this news here in 2023.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
That still doesn’t make sense - the perceived duration of the vehicle’s static position is an issue when no one’s around? Especially given that in real life virtually nobody comes to a complete stop I have a hard time understanding how the NHTSA can say it’s an issue that FSD is perceived to stop for too short of a time. Legally, AFAIK the law says you must come to a complete stop, not a complete stop for xx seconds, but the reacall should be about safety issues, not legal minutia.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
You are supposed to come to 0mph but FSD goes to 1mph (which is actually 0mph I think).
So my interpretation is that the perceived duration of the stop is that it does not stop, when it actually does. This can be fixed by adjusting the speedometer display (which has a lot of issues as we know - this will be a big improvement since hopefully they will also get rid of lag, which may be a contributing factor here (obviously it can’t be just lag)).
NHTSA is not saying anything. This is all Tesla pointing out the shortcomings and setting the requirements.
FSDtester#1
Craves Electrolytes
Could someone help me out, I have been using V 11.3 for a week now and I can't find the appropriate thread to discuss it. 
Could someone help me out, I have been using V 11.3 for a week now and I can't find the appropriate thread to discuss it.
Wiki - FSD Beta v11.x
The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN. From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included. - Object permanence both...
teslamotorsclub.com
On the topic of "FSDb is L2": it's also an entirely reasonable interpretation of the available statements and evidence that "real FSD" is intended to eventually be L3+, and that the FSDb software we're testing today /is/ the same codebase that will eventually evolve into L3+ (not a separate product or whatever), but that the current FSDb is considered officially L2 during this phase of beta testing.
Given that all the municipalities will never come into full compliance on their own and put 10-15mph signs everywhere that humans intuitively know should be that slow, I think Tesla will eventually have to fix this with heuristics based on perception of the surrounding area. Some factors I can imagine going into this:
1) Undivided road that is relatively-narrow (maybe it's technically two cars wide, but not as wide as you'd see on a similar road that's intended to run 35+ mph)
2) Undivided road with no painted striping down the middle whatsoever
3) Density of driveways (e.g. over the next ~1/8 mile ahead, vision sees >1 driveway per 100 feet or whatever).
4) Density of housing close to road (e.g. count of large house-like objects in the next 1/8 mile with their front edges within 40 feet of the curb).
5) Whether the section of road you're on is a dead-end branch of the road network (there might be multiple possible routes ahead, but all lead to dead-ends in less than a mile or whatever).
You could imagine some scoring system based on factors like these, which imposes an additional rule (on top of any observed speed limit) to cap speed at 15mph. Or perhaps even dynamic adjusts the speed limit within the range of (10mph <-> $posted_limit) based on the strength of those factors' inputs.
I understand where you're going with this, and I agree that the car should self-imposed lower speed limits on minor residential roads.
But regarding the implementation, I would say that the list of rules and scoring system is the "Software 1.0" approach. Rather than that, I think they'd train a neural network- probably first by training an auto-labeling network to identify some of the conditions you mentioned, then proceeding to the NN that influences driving policy for comfort and safety.
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