FSD Beta v11.x

JHCCAZ · May 15, 2023

Madmolecule said:
...still no discussion on Liability on FSD! Once FSD is no longer beta, like that will ever come, who is liable for bad Maps or stupid AI decisions when your Tesla is Fully Self Driving

Well, there has been some discussion. As long as FSD is a driver supervised feature ("beta" or not, and whether in the title or description of the feature), most people agree that you are liable for mistakes and at-fault accidents. Map errors? Google Maps occasionally call for an illegal or unavailable maneuver; it's up to you to mind the one-way sign they missed or to not drive on the bridge that was washed out.

There is somewhat less agreement on what happens when Tesla moves to and unsupervised self-driving capability, i.e. not just advanced driver assistance. Some people say that Tesla will :never take liability, but I think this is quite wrong. See my post in a different thread:

FSD future pricing and Mobileye

I noticed that Mobileye currently claims that their FSD package in 2025 will cost $5K to OEMs. OEMs will likely charge us >$10K https://www.techinsights.com/blog/mobileye-eyeq-ultra-aims-level-4...

teslamotorsclub.com

JHCCAZ · May 15, 2023

jebinc said:
Four pages of map debates. You missed nothing.

Well I would say he missed some very insightful observations. I can only feel sorry for you, if you couldn't pick up on the great truths being revealed.

Once you understand them, you will be a more complete man (oops, I mean a more complete whatever you are).

Olle · May 15, 2023

JHCCAZ said:
Well, there has been some discussion. As long as FSD is a driver supervised feature ("beta" or not, and whether in the title or description of the feature), most people agree that you are liable for mistakes and at-fault accidents. Map errors? Google Maps occasionally call for an illegal or unavailable maneuver; it's up to you to mind the one-way sign they missed or to not drive on the bridge that was washed out.

There is somewhat less agreement on what happens when Tesla moves to and unsupervised self-driving capability, i.e. not just advanced driver assistance. Some people say that Tesla will :never take liability, but I think this is quite wrong. See my post in a different thread:

FSD future pricing and Mobileye

I noticed that Mobileye currently claims that their FSD package in 2025 will cost $5K to OEMs. OEMs will likely charge us >$10K https://www.techinsights.com/blog/mobileye-eyeq-ultra-aims-level-4...

teslamotorsclub.com

Excellent discussion. In terms of when Tesla would accept liability, the following seem like logical results IMO:

Obviously Tesla would take on liability for Robotaxi if they owned and operated those.
For the case that you would add your personal car to the Robotaxi fleet, Tesla would cover liability because of the profit motive, otherwise few owners would likely add their cars.
For the case that you ride in your own car in FSD mode, I don't see what Tesla's motivation would be to accept liability. You already paid for Tesla FSD, Tesla wouldn't get anything in return for taking responsibility. Of course you could pay them to be liable, which is Tesla insurance.
A far fetched option would be to add your car to the fleet the moment you order it for your own ride and be insured that way. Then you pay even more in the form of a rider fee instead, in your own car.

uscbucsfan · May 15, 2023

Olle said:
Excellent discussion. In terms of when Tesla would accept liability, it seems to play out something like this:

Obviously Tesla would take on liability for Robotaxi if they owned and operated those.

For the case that you would add your personal car to the Robotaxi fleet, Tesla has a profit motive to cover liability, otherwise few owners would likely add their cars.

For the case that you ride in your own car in FSD mode, I don't see what Tesla's motivation would be to accept liability. You already paid for Tesla FSD, Tesla wouldn't get anything in return for taking responsibility. Of course you could pay them to be liable, which is Tesla insurance.

A far fetched option would be to add your car to the fleet the moment you order it for your own ride and be insured that way. Then you pay even more in the form of a rider fee instead, in your own car.

If Tesla made it to where the car could drive itself beyond supervision (like Summon) they'd have to take liability. If they didn't, they'd lose in court.

Which is why there isn't any foreseeable timeline where you don't have to be in the driver's seat and paying attention.

Edit: And even mentioning Robotaxi is as ridiculous as the Roadster being able to fly. It's not real, there's no current pathway to deliver it to the current fleet.

PR0FESSOR · May 15, 2023

Wait… what? The Roadster will not be able to fly??? It has pitch, roll, and yaw space thrusters and yoke steering… surely you jest!

uscbucsfan said:
Edit: And even mentioning Robotaxi is as ridiculous as the Roadster being able to fly. It's not real, there's no current pathway to deliver it to the current fleet.

animorph · May 15, 2023

When Tesla accepts liability for FSD driving we will have to pay a new insurance premium to them. They've been preparing for this by starting Tesla insurance and the FSD subscription option. Certainly the $2k we paid for our Model 3's FSD long ago isn't going to cover FSD insurance for the life of the car. It won't drive 1000x better than a human.

powertoold · May 15, 2023

animorph said:
When Tesla accepts liability for FSD driving we will have to pay a new insurance premium to them. They've been preparing for this by starting Tesla insurance and the FSD subscription option. Certainly the $2k we paid for our Model 3's FSD long ago isn't going to cover FSD insurance for the life of the car. It won't drive 1000x better than a human.

Yup, I don't think Tesla will ever provide a "free" level 3 or higher service. It will all be charged per mile (or subscription to Tesla insurance) to account for their liability.

Kablooie · May 15, 2023

The incentive for Tesla take responsibility for FSD accidents would be drastically increased sales. FSD that has to be supervised is just one among many in the market. But an FSD that allows you to kick back and sleep is something that no other car company can offer and would probably be in great demand. Tesla would be in a class by itself.

FSD would have to function nearly flawlessly. Tesla's accountants would have to determine that the odds of FSD causing an accident would be so small that paying out lawsuits would not be a significant cost compared to the increased revenues from FSD customers.

I think this is what Musk meant when he talked about Tesla's worth being based on the future of FSD.

JHCCAZ · May 15, 2023

Kablooie said:
FSD would have to function nearly flawlessly. Tesla's accountants would have to determine that the odds of FSD causing an accident would be so small that paying out lawsuits would not be a significant cost compared to the increased revenues from FSD customers.

Lawsuit is not the only outcome, not even the primary one, from an accident with an autonomous vehicle. Will there be lawsuits? I'm there will be, just like there are following accidents today. But I disagree when people refer to this as some insurmountable barrier to Tesla AVs. (And yes, I know some people like to cut off the discussion by proclaiming Tesla AV will never happen - that's a separate argument.)

The three paragraphs below are largely taken from a post I made recently, but linking it doesn't seem to be effective, so I'm cros-posting myself. TLDR - it's all about insurance, and Tesla is already building the AV-specific insurance component.

Liability (and collision and underinsured/uninsured protection etc.) for L4+ has a statistically-determined cost that is perfectly amenable to actuarial determination of the risk, the profitable price and the market business model - actually even more so than insured vehicles and drivers, because of the increased level of monitoring telemetry and the ability to play back evidence of what happened in an accident.

Tesla will know quite well that the AV is a safe though not absolutely perfect driver. Also, it will become very difficult for the other party to claim the fault is on the AV and distort or misremember what actually happened. Watch Wham Bam Tesla Cam on YouTube for a preview as well as for entertainment. Note also that additional data of steering, braaking, accelerometers and motor activity, possibly microphone audio, will be available in the aftermath of an accident.

Further to this point, Tesla is actually more likely, not less likely, then other OEMs to "accept" liability because they are already offering an insurance product that is tightly coupled to the car's software. They didn't get into that business just to cover manual driving of their cars (which they don't expect to be the primary model in the future), nor to insure FSD "supervisor drivers" in the interim prior the availability of to robotaxis and personal AVs.

LSDTester#1 · May 15, 2023

I've missed this thread since the week before the Masters. Lucille is in the shop as of May 10 to get a new wiring harness in the rear view put on her as it was interfering with the GPS and getting a new set of Pirellis. Just got a service completion update of May 18, so, here I am..

What'd I miss? Not interested enough to go through 150 pages.

Readers Digest Version?

JHCCAZ · May 15, 2023

Pdubs said:
I've missed this thread since the week before the Masters...

What'd I miss? Not interested enough to go through 150 pages.

Readers Digest Version?

FSD beta11.4 went only to employee cars and there was one person (Tesla Bull) who posted videos on Twitter and YouTube.

Version 11.4.1 appeared a week or so back, with a different (presumably supplemental) set of release notes. It went to the employees and Tesla Bull, but then a few days later went to the OG testers and YouTubers, and there are quite a number you can watch. Overall better but definitely not flawless, and some reported regressions.

The same 11.4.1 is continuing to expand to non-influencers including a few here on the forum (not me). More releases each day but not an avalanche yet. No one knows if a bug fix 11.4.1.x or a more significant 11.4.2 might be coming soon, but in the meantime the rollout continues.

Even if 11.4.x is not the unbelievably perfect driver, its claim to importance is that machine learning neural network code is being used for a lot more of a pipeline than before. This seems to be working, as many of the reports do say it's smoother - sometimes wrong, but smoother.

Meanwhile a lot of other discussion as usual.

LSDTester#1 · May 15, 2023

JHCCAZ said:
FSD beta11.4 went only to employee cars and there was one person (Tesla Bull) who posted videos on Twitter and YouTube.

Version 11.4.1 appeared a week or so back, with a different (presumably supplemental) set of release notes. It went to the employees and Tesla Bull, but then a few days later went to the OG testers and YouTubers, and there are quite a number you can watch. Overall better but definitely not flawless, and some reported regressions.

The same 11.4.1 is continuing to expand to non-influencers including a few here on the forum (not me). More releases each day but not an avalanche yet. No one knows if a bug fix 11.4.1.x or a more significant 11.4.2 might be coming soon, but in the meantime the rollout continues.

Even if 11.4.x is not the unbelievably perfect driver, its claim to importance is that machine learning neural network code is being used for a lot more of a pipeline than before. This seems to be working, as many of the reports do say it's smoother - sometimes wrong, but smoother.

Meanwhile a lot of other discussion as usual.

well done!

aronth5 · May 15, 2023

Ramphex said:
Damn I’m behind on 4 pages

Can I get spark notes?

Another option is just check out "Dummies for HD maps".

Nothing personal since I'll do the same.

LSDTester#1 · May 15, 2023

jebinc said:
Four pages of map debates. You missed nothing.

I didn't have to go back very far. dang, I just wasted more bandwidth. one page is all I needed. thanks jebincster

LSDTester#1 · May 15, 2023

JHCCAZ said:
Well I would say he missed some very insightful observations. I can only feel sorry for you, if you couldn't pick up on the great truths being revealed.

Once you understand them, you will be a more complete man (oops, I mean a more complete whatever you are).

non duality.

I like it.

PR0FESSOR · May 15, 2023

FSD has some positive aspects, some negative aspects, some people like Elon Musk, some people do not, and the new Tesla Roadster has been sighted taking off from a local airport in Fremont.

Joe

Pdubs said:
I've missed this thread since the week before the Masters. Lucille is in the shop as of May 10 to get a new wiring harness in the rear view put on her as it was interfering with the GPS and getting a new set of Pirellis. Just got a service completion update of May 18, so, here I am..

What'd I miss? Not interested enough to go through 150 pages.

Readers Digest Version?

GhostMY · May 15, 2023

Drove 11.4.1 to and from work for the first time. Roughly 45 minutes and 30 miles each way. Morning started rough. Couldn't make a protected left turn it has done well previously. I had to intervene after some failed jerky moves. I would add that the sun was just up and particularly blinding so that might explain the behavior. Then, a few minutes later, no sun involved, while going along a four lane divided road (US 1 in FL) FSD decided to move to the right in a turn lane into a plaza. No idea why. Intervened. The rest of the drive was quite nice.

Drive home: absolutely great not a single intervention. A couple of slow downs (more than I would have) when cars from the opposite direction turned left and crossed my path but otherwise very smooth, very comfortable drive. Most impressive since I started on FSD in November of 2021.

Twiglett · May 15, 2023

GhostMY said:
Drove 11.4.1 to and from work for the first time. Roughly 45 minutes and 30 miles each way. Morning started rough. Couldn't make a protected left turn it has done well previously. I had to intervene after some failed jerky moves. I would add that the sun was just up and particularly blinding so that might explain the behavior. Then, a few minutes later, no sun involved, while going along a four lane divided road (US 1 in FL) FSD decided to move to the right in a turn lane into a plaza. No idea why. Intervened. The rest of the drive was quite nice.

Drive home: absolutely great not a single intervention. A couple of slow downs (more than I would have) when cars from the opposite direction turned left and crossed my path but otherwise very smooth, very comfortable drive. Most impressive since I started on FSD in November of 2021.

you just reminded me to try something with 11.3.6 to see if they solved a particularly odd thing the ".69's" would do.
Driving down one specific road 400 yards from a four way where the nav shows we would turn left at. FSDb would signal right and turn into the neighborhood just before our turn. It did it with some repeatability.
If it ever stops raining I'll give it a try

JHCCAZ · May 15, 2023

On my usual drives today still 11.3.6) I noticed a distinct Improvement in the usual tendency for it to
a) get out of the leftmost lane just a few hundred yards before it needs to enter a particular double left turn lane,
b) try to get into a particular left turn bay on a 35 mph semi-residential road, despite the nav clearly knowing that the next turn is a about a quarter mile up.

Both of these showed no problem today, which was definitely a pleasant surprise. Other than the luck of the NN draw, the best explanation I have is that the real-time downloadable routing hints are continuing to improve week by week.

Interested into hear from others who see improvements at what were consistently problematic locations.

SSDTester#1 · May 15, 2023

aronth5 said:
Another option is just check out "Dummies for HD maps".
Nothing personal since I'll do the same.

I have a TV that does HD, is that good?

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