FSD Beta v11.x

Twiglett · Jan 9, 2023

My 2018 Model 3 was one of those that was sold as "have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances"
Notice no "capability" there

Of course they will say the definition of "future" has no limit and may well be beyond the useable life of my car.

vegetaban · Jan 9, 2023

JulienW said:
If you are driving to your tire rotation then you can use Beta to try and get you there.

I let it drive me home from my tire rotation, actually Costco since I had to eat a hotdog while it installed. Very impressed with my first drive.

vegetaban · Jan 9, 2023

I have one more question, when it does something strange how can I submit a clip to tesla to provide feedback. I saw some YouTube videos where they would press a button on the screen to provide “feedback”. Sorry if this is a stupid question.

willow_hiller · Jan 9, 2023

vegetaban said:
I have one more question, when it does something strange how can I submit a clip to tesla to provide feedback. I saw some YouTube videos where they would press a button on the screen to provide “feedback”. Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Not a stupid question. There used to be a button, it's gone now for most people. The best way to send feedback is to consistently disengage or intervene when FSD Beta does something wrong. For e.g. my car sometimes slows down to 4 MPH before making a turn into my neighborhood, so every time I sense it slowing down, I intervene by lightly pressing on the accelerator.

Tesla collects metadata on every disengagement and intervention, and occasionally takes video clips to feed back into the training when you connect your car to wifi.

vegetaban · Jan 9, 2023

willow_hiller said:
Not a stupid question. There used to be a button, it's gone now for most people. The best way to send feedback is to consistently disengage or intervene when FSD Beta does something wrong. For e.g. my car sometimes slows down to 4 MPH before making a turn into my neighborhood, so every time I sense it slowing down, I intervene by lightly pressing on the accelerator.

Tesla collects metadata on every disengagement and intervention, and occasionally takes video clips to feed back into the training when you connect your car to wifi.

Oh, perfect. I’ve been giving them that data then. When I sensed odd stuff happening I would use accelerator or brakes instinctively.

Dewg · Jan 9, 2023

vegetaban said:
Oh, perfect. I’ve been giving them that data then. When I sensed odd stuff happening I would use accelerator or brakes instinctively.

Tesla can also pull data from the fleet on specific scenarios whenever they'd like. For example, they can look closely at roundabouts by sending a query to the fleet for data and visuals when encountering a roundabout.

JulienW · Jan 10, 2023

vanca said:
If Tesla can't actually create a real (L4) "FSD", post-3/19 buyers get only what was listed (or developed for them since). But FSD was never sold as being *limited* to only those few features available at the time. It was sold as including whatever features Teslas added to that product named "FSD" in the future. It was quite clear that Tesla's goal was to have L4 capability in FSD. No guarantees, but the goal. If Tesla can create a real "FSD", the later purchasers are also entitled to it. If Tesla wanted to segregate follow on capabilities, and say, sell L4 capabilitiy to folks who already purchased "FSD", they would have had to create a different product. And the worst PR disaster in history.

Actually if they can get to L3 that would be "real" Full Self Driving and meet all sales contractual and printed agreements. Even if you read the document Nightshade posted about using as a rideshare it doesn't specifically say "without a driver".

Gbills · Jan 10, 2023

JulienW said:
Actually if they can get to L3 that would be "real" Full Self Driving and meet all sales contractual and printed agreements. Even if you read the document Nightshade posted about using as a rideshare it doesn't specifically say "without a driver".

I could be mistaken but I think this paragraph states what Tesla will do by itself.

JulienW · Jan 10, 2023

Gbills said:
I could be mistaken but I think this paragraph states what Tesla will do by itself.

L4/L5 is for driving on public streets ONLY. So parking is not considered part of the standards as long as it is on private property. Tesla doesn't state this can be done on or from a public street.

EDIT: Analogy: Smart Summon can now be used without a driver. But not on public roads.

powertoold · Jan 10, 2023

Knightshade said:
It states no action is required by the person in the drivers seat.

Yes let's just look at the description in isolation. Leave the SAE definition out of this.

"The system is designed to *be able to* conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat."

In other words the system *can* / *is capable of* in some circumstances conduct the trip without any action by the person sitting in the driver's seat. This is not a guarantee that all trips will not require any action. If it can simply complete one / any trip without "action" required, then it fulfills the description. "Long" and "short" are arbitrary.

And I know you disagree with this, but to me, *action* in this case can be interpreted to mean *intervention.* Just in the same way as a driving teacher supervises a driving student and may intervene if needed. The teacher himself isn't taking part in the driving.

Knightshade · Jan 10, 2023

powertoold said:
Yes let's just look at the description in isolation.

"The system is designed to *be able to* conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat."

In other words the system *can* / *is capable of* in some circumstances conduct the trip without any action by the person sitting in the driver's seat. This is not a guarantee that all trips will not require any action.

Sure.

But the only levels ever that can drive without human action are L4 and L5 per the chart.

If Tesla says the system is capable of driving without human action it's L4 or L5. By definition.

Even if it sometimes fails. (Though you will need to read the 30 page doc to understand that last part--- an L4 system that fails sometimes is still an L4 system. If the design intent is to enable driving without requiring human action that's the important part making it L4 or L5... and it's crystal clear Tesla is telling you their system is intended to do exactly that.)

powertoold said:
And I know you disagree with this, but to me, *action* in this case can be interpreted to mean *intervention.*

The dictionary also disagrees with you.

As does the SAE since it specifically lists L3 (and below) as the human having to "do" something- which is an action.

powertoold said:
Just in the same way as a driving teacher supervises a driving student and may intervene if needed. The teacher himself isn't taking part in the driving.

Supervising is, of course, also an action by every actual definition of those words.

powertoold · Jan 10, 2023

Knightshade said:
Supervising is, of course, also an action by every actual definition of those words.

Yes but is the driving teacher driving.

Knightshade · Jan 10, 2023

powertoold said:
Yes but is the driving teacher driving.

Why would we care?

Tesla does not say 'FSD will not require driving by the person in the drivers seat"

Tesla says "FSD will require no action by the person in the drivers seat"

If the person sitting there has to do ANYTHING it does not meet the product definition Tesla gave. ANYTHING includes supervising, or taking over when requested by the system.

Therefore Tesla is, by definition, describing a system that is at least L4. Because only at L4 and above is no action required of a person in the drivers seat.

powertoold · Jan 10, 2023

Knightshade said:
Why would we care?

Tesla does not say 'FSD will not require driving by the person in the drivers seat"

Tesla says "FSD will require no action by the person in the drivers seat"

If the person sitting there has to do ANYTHING it does not meet the product definition Tesla gave. ANYTHING includes supervising, or taking over when requested by the system.

Therefore Tesla is, by definition, describing a system that is at least L4. Because only at L4 is no action required of a person in the drivers seat.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing in the SAE levels when the description makes no reference to it at all.

The title is full self "driving", and I'm asking you if the driving teacher is driving.

Knightshade · Jan 10, 2023

powertoold said:
I'm not sure why you keep bringing in the SAE levels when the description makes no reference to it at all.

Because the actual topic is what SAE level did Tesla promise.

Which you can easily figure out if you understand:

What Tesla literally promised
and
What the requirements are for each SAE level.

powertoold said:
The title is full self "driving", and I'm asking you if the driving teacher is driving.

And I'm pointing out how utterly irrelevant that is.

'A happy meal offers no guarantee of curing depression.

A diaper genie also does not grant wishes, but that isn't the basis for a fraud claim.

We have to base our conclusions on the actual promised features and capabilities- not the marketing name.

The actual promised features and capabilities in Teslas pre-3/19 FSD product (which again is fundamentally different from their post 3/19 FSD product) describe a system that is at least SAE L4 (arguable or not if it's 5).

If the driving instructor ever needs to do ANYTHING-- including both supervising or being available to take over the driving task- then there is an action required of him.

Which Tesla has told us is not the case for their own pre 3/19 FSD system-- a system that will require no action of any kind from the person in the drivers seat.

Which is only true of L4 or higher SAE design intent.

JulienW · Jan 10, 2023

Knightshade said:
....What was promised to the pre 3/19 people would exclude L3, since L3 requires the person in the drivers seat to always be prepared to recognize a signal from the car and always be prepared to take over the driving task if they receive one- which runs contrary to the promise to do complete drives without requiring any action from the person in the drivers seat.

L4 is the first SAE level where there is never a requirement for a human to take any action.

Where does Tesla specifically state that the cars will operate in L4/L5 without someone in the driver's seat?

Knightshade · Jan 10, 2023

JulienW said:
Where does Tesla specifically state that the cars will operate in L4/L5 without someone in the driver's seat?

Where did I ever claim they said nobody needs to be in the drivers seat?

What Tesla actually says (and what I have said) is, unsurprisingly, literally what I posted a picture of them saying, and keep quoting them saying over the last 2 pages.

What they say is no action will be required by a person in that seat.

Supervising is an action.

Being prepared to take over and drive if prompted is also an action (arguably it's 2 actions).

Therefore we know their intent/promise (pre 3/19) does not require either of those things since they are actions.

L2 and L3 require those actions.

Therefore the system they are describing can not be L2 or L3. At minimum it would be L4, since that is the minimum level where no action is required by a person in the drivers seat.

None of this is 1/10th as complicated as some folks keep trying to make it. It's frankly bizarre.

JulienW · Jan 10, 2023

Knightshade said:
Where did I ever claim they said nobody needs to be in the drivers seat?

What Tesla actually says (and what I have said) is, unsurprisingly, literally what I posted a picture of them saying, and keep quoting them saying over the last 2 pages.

What they say is no action will be required by a person in that seat.

Supervising is an action.

Being prepared to take over and drive if prompted is also an action (arguably it's 2 actions).

Therefore we know their intent/promise (pre 3/19) does not require either of those things since they are actions.

L2 and L3 require those actions.

Therefore the system they are describing can not be L2 or L3. At minimum it would be L4, since that is the minimum level where no action is required by a person in the drivers seat.

None of this is 1/10th as complicated as some folks keep trying to make it. It's frankly bizarre.

You are inferring. it says "It will be ABLE to" not that it will [always] do. L3 will be able to (under the right conditions).

"The system is designed to be ABLE to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat."

It does NOT say: The system is designed to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required AND NO person in the driver’s seat.

Knightshade · Jan 10, 2023

JulienW said:
You are inferring. it says "It will be ABLE to" not that it will [always] do. L3 will be able to (under the right conditions).

This is factually wrong.

L3 requires- ever time for the human in the drivers seat to take actions- including being prepared to take over when prompted.

You must always do this every time you engage an L3 system, and for the entire time it is running.

An L3 system by definition can not ever operate safely without a human taking the action of being available and prepared to take over if prompted.

Since Tesla has told us the person in the drivers seat will not need to take ANY action, it can't be L3.

JulienW said:
It does NOT say: The system is designed to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required AND NO person in the driver’s seat.

Nor has anyone claimed it did- so if you could stop using that strawman that'd be great.

L4 BTW -also- does not require no person in the drivers seat.

It's entirely agnostic to there being a person there or not.

But L4 DOES require that the person in that seat, if there is one, does not have to take any action.

Because L4 is the LOWEST level where that is EVER true.

Which is why Tesla is describe at minimum an L4 system when they say that.

JulienW · Jan 10, 2023

Knightshade said:
This is factually wrong.

L3 requires- ever time for the human in the drivers seat to take actions- including being prepared to take over when prompted......

L3 doesn’t require any action UNLESS “When the feature requests you must drive”. Setting in the driver’s seat and being prepared is NOT an action. An action is preforming a task and NOT waiting to do a task. If it is “able to” drive and doesn’t “request” then no action is required by you. You can play video games, read a book or watch a move and “You are not driving…” or taking ANY actions related to driving.

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