FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[jebinc]

Sounds like my experience = Model 3 Standard on v11.3.6. I've stopped caring how it handles roundabouts. It just re-routes. But I'm not a backseat driver (means, I'm not the guy in the back of an Uber, telling the driver how to drive and what route to take).

Also - to be clear - this is beta software. I DO NOT expect it to be smooth, error free or robotaxi-ready. I expect the software to fail and it's my role to takeover and then report the issue.

Given that most features in a Tesla are perpetually in “beta” status, like auto wipers, auto headlights, NOA, summon, smart summon and more - using your logic, you would not expect these to “be error free,” or “smooth,” either, correct? Rhetorical question, obviously.

@Ramphex @WilliamG

 

[EVNow]

I'm having a good time driving around Seattle. In fact, I find FSD easier to use than following this thread

But I'm old (not quite a boomer ) and haven't used forums much in decades. So, if I understand correctly - y'all looking to do a comparison of Tesla models with FSD beta on v.11.3.6 to compare how the models differ? I'm not sure why that's interesting but happy to join in on the fun!

I post my experiences to youtube.com/@FSDSeattle and am best engaged with their but will do my best to respond here if I can work it out!

Welcome, thanks for coming over.

Just to clarify, by models we mean 3/Y vs X/Y. As you may have read in this thread, the hypothesis is that FSD is better in 3/Y compared to S/X.

To expand, there is a wide range of perceived quality (and thus usefulness) of FSD and I've been trying to figure out why. Some of the causes might be
- location differences (a lot of people think this is the cause)
- model differences (3/Y vs S/X)
- learning curve i.e. those who put in the effort to push the boundaries to learn how FSD behaves will understand its capabilities better and are able to use it more ... this is my contention.

ps : Expect a lot of bickering and debates here. Lots of folks have been testing FSD from the beginning.

 

[jebinc]

Welcome, thanks for coming over.

Just to clarify, by models we mean 3/Y vs X/Y. As you may have read in this thread, the hypothesis is that FSD is better in 3/Y compared to S/X.

To expand, there is a wide range of perceived quality (and thus usefulness) of FSD and I've been trying to figure out why. Some of the causes might be
- location differences (a lot of people think this is the cause)
- model differences (3/Y vs S/X)
- learning curve i.e. those who put in the effort to push the boundaries to learn how FSD behaves will understand its capabilities better and are able to use it more ... this is my contention.

ps : Expect a lot of bickering and debates here. Lots of folks have been testing FSD from the beginning.

Sadly, for nearly two years…. And yet, here we aren’t….

 

[EVNow]

Sadly, for nearly two years…. And yet, here we aren’t….

Yes - honestly the way it works now is what I expected when we first got it 1.5 years back. Except for all the jittery wheel turning. That I still don't get. The pace of improvement has definitely been slower than my expectation too.

 

[kabin]

Sounds like my experience = Model 3 Standard on v11.3.6. I've stopped caring how it handles roundabouts. It just re-routes. But I'm not a backseat driver (means, I'm not the guy in the back of an Uber, telling the driver how to drive and what route to take).

Also - to be clear - this is beta software. I DO NOT expect it to be smooth, error free or robotaxi-ready. I expect the software to fail and it's my role to takeover and then report the issue.

Tesla can call it whatever they want but it is available for sale to the masses at a top price which flies against software development cycles. 11.3.6 isn't feature complete and they are trying to solve performance issues not just bugs. Heck, they haven't even settled on the hardware design yet. It's either in the alpha or the final crappa stage. The latter stage requires a design enema.

 

[jebinc]

…. The latter stage requires a design enema.

Laced with barium….

 

[SSDTester#1]

Sounds like my experience = Model 3 Standard on v11.3.6. I've stopped caring how it handles roundabouts. It just re-routes. But I'm not a backseat driver (means, I'm not the guy in the back of an Uber, telling the driver how to drive and what route to take).

Also - to be clear - this is beta software. I DO NOT expect it to be smooth, error free or robotaxi-ready. I expect the software to fail and it's my role to takeover and then report the issue.

How long are we going to accept it being a beta software, despite the price increases and CEO’s undelivered promises?

As @EVNow said, I feel if THIS is what we got when we started beta testing, and there was significant progress from the start on. The overall attitude would’ve been much different.

What we got when we started was a pile of crap, that was promised to work better than the current version does. That led to a ton of disappointment, and the very slow improvements yielded in more annoyance and feeling of being lied to.

I also find it very interesting that they upped the micromanagement of you paying attention as the revisions came out. Why did they force cabin camera (there was a point in time where you can disable it in the refresh models) to watch you while you’re watching the road and jerking off your steering wheel/yoke, if the software was apparently getting better?

What disappoints me is the knowledge that looking at the past update trends, I’ll never get a hands free FSD that can drive even as an average human, before upgrading to a newer model car. FSD resale value is crap, and I’m not going to spend $15k on it in the new car (if I choose to stay with Tesla for my next car) knowing that I could get duped once again and Elon could not be trusted (still waiting for console quality gaming in my refresh MS - it’ll never happen).

 

[jebinc]

How long are we going to accept it being a beta software, despite the price increases and CEO’s undelivered promises?

As @EVNow said, I feel if THIS is what we got when we started beta testing, and there was significant progress from the start on. The overall attitude would’ve been much different.

What we got when we started was a pile of crap, that was promised to work better than the current version does. That led to a ton of disappointment, and the very slow improvements yielded in more annoyance and feeling of being lied to.

I also find it very interesting that they upped the micromanagement of you paying attention as the revisions came out. Why did they force cabin camera (there was a point in time where you can disable it in the refresh models) to watch you while you’re watching the road and jerking off your steering wheel/yoke, if the software was apparently getting better?

What disappoints me is the knowledge that looking at the past update trends, I’ll never get a hands free FSD that can drive even as an average human, before upgrading to a newer model car. FSD resale value is crap, and I’m not going to spend $15k on it in the new car (if I choose to stay with Tesla for my next car) knowing that I could get duped once again and Elon could not be trusted (still waiting for console quality gaming in my refresh MS - it’ll never happen).

TGC

 

[sandman1330]

How long are we going to accept it being a beta software, despite the price increases and CEO’s undelivered promises?

As @EVNow said, I feel if THIS is what we got when we started beta testing, and there was significant progress from the start on. The overall attitude would’ve been much different.

What we got when we started was a pile of crap, that was promised to work better than the current version does. That led to a ton of disappointment, and the very slow improvements yielded in more annoyance and feeling of being lied to.

I also find it very interesting that they upped the micromanagement of you paying attention as the revisions came out. Why did they force cabin camera (there was a point in time where you can disable it in the refresh models) to watch you while you’re watching the road and jerking off your steering wheel/yoke, if the software was apparently getting better?

What disappoints me is the knowledge that looking at the past update trends, I’ll never get a hands free FSD that can drive even as an average human, before upgrading to a newer model car. FSD resale value is crap, and I’m not going to spend $15k on it in the new car (if I choose to stay with Tesla for my next car) knowing that I could get duped once again and Elon could not be trusted (still waiting for console quality gaming in my refresh MS - it’ll never happen).

Yeah I’ll never buy FSD again, like you if I even stay with Tesla. With the exception of steam (I received just late enough to get steam but not the new lights), my journey has been a mirror of yours, disappointment on undelivered features for the refresh S. Though I do still love my S, I do miss it every time I’m forced to drive an ICE, I’m disappointed with how Tesla delivered it half finished and has made no effort to complete promised features.

My biggest and loudest piece of advice to anyone who asks for my recommendation on Tesla is not to, ever, under any circumstances purchase FSD.

 

[Dennisis]

My biggest and loudest piece of advice to anyone who asks for my recommendation on Tesla is not to, ever, under any circumstances purchase FSD.

Yes, why anyone would pay $15K at this point is beyond me. When I sell my current MY I'll just plan to perhaps subscribe (if another Tesla of course) when I take road trips. Around town it's just a party trick for me - if it came with the car I'd take it but not pay extra. I suppose when/if it gets REALLY good and I get old enough I might reconsider but that's a ways off.

 

[SSDTester#1]

Yeah I’ll never buy FSD again, like you if I even stay with Tesla. With the exception of steam (I received just late enough to get steam but not the new lights), my journey has been a mirror of yours, disappointment on undelivered features for the refresh S. Though I do still love my S, I do miss it every time I’m forced to drive an ICE, I’m disappointed with how Tesla delivered it half finished and has made no effort to complete promised features.

My biggest and loudest piece of advice to anyone who asks for my recommendation on Tesla is not to, ever, under any circumstances purchase FSD.

I do love my refresh Model S, and it’s the best car I’ve owned to date, but I would mentally be way better off if the stuff that I didn’t get, wasn’t advertised in the first place. I don’t like feeling duped, especially for that price tag. It spoils the overall experience.

Will I go back to ICE with my next car? Very unlikely. Charging the car off the solar at my house has provided me with “free gas” for the past year. I’ll 100% be sure to test drive the Rivian, Taycan, Benz, and whatever else that’s quality that’s out by then. Will I be looking for an “FSD equivalent” in these vehicles? No. I’ll be looking at the build quality and performance. Oh yea. Also reviews to see if there’s an unlimited amount of wet sock smell that comes with the vehicle due to the poor AC design

 

[Genie]

TGC

Tesla golf cart? Sorry I don’t recognize the acronym

 

[jebinc]

Tesla golf cart? Sorry I don’t recognize the acronym

The Great Charlatan (Elon).

 

[SeattleFSD]

Given that most features in a Tesla are perpetually in “beta” status, like auto wipers, auto headlights, NOA, summon, smart summon and more - using your logic, you would not expect these to “be error free,” or “smooth,” either, correct? Rhetorical question, obviously.

@Ramphex @WilliamG

I didn't know those feature were also in beta status. In fact, I thought FSD was the only feature in beta. So yes, you are right - any feature in beta: I expect errors and see it as my responsibility to report them.

That said, I work in software. I used to have rebuild my PCs and consoles each time we got an OS refresh. Meaning, I'm quite familiar and used to poor performance when software is in beta.

 

[SeattleFSD]

Yes, why anyone would pay $15K at this point is beyond me. When I sell my current MY I'll just plan to perhaps subscribe (if another Tesla of course) when I take road trips. Around town it's just a party trick for me - if it came with the car I'd take it but not pay extra. I suppose when/if it gets REALLY good and I get old enough I might reconsider but that's a ways off.

I agree. I wouldn't have paid $15K.

What's also beyond me - why those who did, have yet to band together and launch a lawsuit. I just joined this thread, so I'm a newbie here. Maybe there is an ongoing effort?

 

[EVNow]

Yes, why anyone would pay $15K at this point is beyond me.

IMO it is high to discourage people from buying - they expect people to just subscribe. No deferred revenue (and legal liability) to carry on in the books ... Tesla isn't exactly cash-strapped now unlike even a couple of years back ($22B end of '22 compared to $6B end of '19).

 

[sandman1330]

IMO it is high to discourage people from buying - they expect people to just subscribe. No liability to carry on in the books ... Tesla doesn't exactly cash-strapped now unlike even a couple of years back ($22B end of '22 compared to $6B end of '19).

That’s a strange tactic though, when they still haven’t expanded the subscription outside the US. Still not available in Canada or UK(?) where beta is now available…

 

[EVNow]

That’s a strange tactic though, when they still haven’t expanded the subscription outside the US. Still not available in Canada or UK(?) where beta is now available…

Not strange from a legal liability POV. This is also the reason they have not offered to carry over FSD to the next vehicle after you upgrade - even though they have offered free charging at times.

 

[WilliamG]

The stupid thing about FSD purchasing is that Tesla could actually solve this problem. Here's my solution: Just bind FSD to your Tesla at the car level with the option of removing it back out to the account level (one purchase needed per vehicle, of course) up until the point where it's "complete." At that point, it's bound to the vehicle and removed from the account level. That way, as some of us have done already, for right now - when we trade in the car to Tesla without getting what we paid for, we know we get the feature in the next Tesla. This would also encourage consumer loyalty to the Tesla brand, "guarantee" the next car will be a Tesla, too. I'd enjoy that far more than what I have here, which is having paid for FSD multiple times and having gotten pretty much zero value out of it.

Now, I know Tesla's trade-in values can be kind of meh at times, so Tesla could dig deeper into solving that if sold privately with FSD removal (removed from the car and shifted back to the account level), so that the next car bought from Tesla gets FSD reinserted into that car, - again, up until the point where FSD is considered complete.

 

[jebinc]

The stupid thing about FSD purchasing is that Tesla could actually solve this problem. Here's my solution: Just bind FSD to your Tesla at the car level with the option of removing it back out to the account level (one purchase needed per vehicle, of course) up until the point where it's "complete." At that point, it's bound to the vehicle and removed from the account level. That way, as some of us have done already, for right now - when we trade in the car to Tesla without getting what we paid for, we know we get the feature in the next Tesla. This would also encourage consumer loyalty to the Tesla brand, "guarantee" the next car will be a Tesla, too. I'd enjoy that far more than what I have here, which is having paid for FSD multiple times and having gotten pretty much zero value out of it.

Now, I know Tesla's trade-in values can be kind of meh at times, so Tesla could dig deeper into solving that if sold privately with FSD removal (removed from the car and shifted back to the account level), so that the next car bought from Tesla gets FSD reinserted into that car, - again, up until the point where FSD is considered complete.

Because this is logical/makes sense, this will never happen.