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FSD Timeline Promises (summary)

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
13,641
23,157
NC
Then what is the "Getting $3k" referring to?

It would be (barring interest or punitive damages) the max refund any 'early' FSD buyers would be entitled to if they still haven't delivered what was promised once we're well beyond the useful life of the vehicle and folks decided to file a lawsuit on that basis.

Right now the very oldest FSD owners are weeks away from 5 years, so we're not there yet.
 

daniel

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2009
5,162
4,387
Kihei, HI
There has been a method to recover at least some value from the FSD purchase? I may be in the minority here, but the level of competence of the current FSD Beta stack is absolutely in line with what I thought I was paying for. Autosteer on city streets was how it was marketed to me, and it clearly works about as well as Smart Summon, NOA, or any of the other features. A scope complete L2 system, which is what I want.

What I don't want is for the conditions of my purchase to change. I no longer believe the company will deliver this feature set, which they currently have and I have paid for several times, under the terms of my original purchase. It is clear that they have devised and have implemented additional conditions for the use of this software that are outside the scope of our original agreement. From my point of view, I don't see how putting the beta moniker on the software removes their obligation to ship the software. There is plenty of precedent throughout the history of Tesla of one paying for Beta features, and having them activated immediately, regardless of their level of polish.

So is there in fact a known method to seek partial compensation for this portion of the package? I do not wish to change the conditions of my use of the software as were presented to me when I purchased this option.

You paid several times? Did you buy several cars with the "FSD" package?

Why do you think you won't get the Level 2 City Streets package?
 
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Saabstory88

Guest
You paid several times? Did you buy several cars with the "FSD" package?

Why do you think you won't get the Level 2 City Streets package?
Yes, and I am on car #3.

I don't think I will get the autosteer on city streets feature without having the requirements of using that package changed. The company currently has deployed autosteer on city streets which operates as well as previous features they have sold me under the umbrella of the FSD package. They have evidently created new terms for the use of this software that I was not informed of when I originally purchased this vehicle. I see not evidence that the company will change these requirements, especially with the addition of camera based DMS into standard autopilot.

I am not willing to change my end of the agreement to use the system. When I bought the car, the two requirements to use features were...
1. To pay for the package
2. To pay attention and confirm this attention with wheel based input

I therefore do not believe that Tesla plans to honor the original deliverable, which my understanding was an L2 driver assistance feature which worked on city streets, and required hands on the wheel attention monitoring.

I would either like to receive this functionality under the original terms, receive compensation for the features they do not intend to deliver under these terms, or I would like to find other vehicles to drive who's terms of using their ADAS features are not modified without notification after purchase. I totally understand if the last of those is my only recourse, but was hoping that one of the other two would be possible.
 
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Saabstory88

Guest
No, it has not.

What Tesla has done is selected a subset of "hand raisers" to test the city fsd.
It is clearly more competent than Smart Summon or Stop Light control, which I have been sold, and as far as I know, revenue has been recognized for. This argument would make sense to me if it were less competent than those features, which it is clearly not.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
11,601
32,218
Seattle, WA
It is clearly more competent than Smart Summon or Stop Light control, which I have been sold, and as far as I know, revenue has been recognized for. This argument would make sense to me if it were less competent than those features, which it is clearly not.
The error rate is a lot higher than "stop light control" for sure.

Besides, Tesla clearly states it as "limited early access". So, you don't need to read between the lines or get convinced of any arguments. If you trace back this whole "fsd button" etc - you will see it started with Musk saying they want to expand the Beta tester group by first 2x and then 10x. The button came as a way to expand because a lot of people wanted to be in and Tesla didn't want to deal with a lot of phone calls / emails on this.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,278
2,771
Orange County, CA
Then what is the "Getting $3k" referring to?
Let's look at your question: "So is there in fact a known method to seek partial compensation for this portion of the package? I do not wish to change the conditions of my use of the software as were presented to me when I purchased this option."

You may not wish to change some of the conditions that you were supposedly promised, while at the same time asking for money to refund other conditions you may or may not have been "presented."

"NO" pertained to that notion.

Please be intelligent consumers and read purchase agreements, not just corporate fluff by tweet.
 
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Saabstory88

Guest
The error rate is a lot higher than "stop light control" for sure.

Besides, Tesla clearly states it as "limited early access". So, you don't need to read between the lines or get convinced of any arguments. If you trace back this whole "fsd button" etc - you will see it started with Musk saying they want to expand the Beta tester group by first 2x and then 10x. The button came as a way to expand because a lot of people wanted to be in and Tesla didn't want to deal with a lot of phone calls / emails on this.

I think you may be misunderstanding my core point. To be able to meet what they originally sold me, I would have to be provided with a L2 city streets system which lacks camera based DMS, and does not track your manual driving habits. These were not stated conditions when I purchased the software, and I do not see language in my MVPA that allows them to require this. I may have missed it, and would love to have it pointed out to me. It would narrow my options to just selling my vehicles. I take the current level of competence as evidence that these items will be permanently required for the use of these packages.

I would not have purchased if these were conditions of use, the same reason I would not buy a Ford or GM product, as they DMS requirements that I do not wish to use,. It's just personal preference. If there is a convincing argument that the company is making a good faith effort to deliver "Autosteer on City Streets" without creating new requirements for the use of that package, then I may hang on a bit longer. Otherwise, this software package and by extension, vehicles, just aren't for me, and that's okay.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,278
2,771
Orange County, CA
I think you may be misunderstanding my core point. To be able to meet what they originally sold me, I would have to be provided with a L2 city streets system which lacks camera based DMS, and does not track your manual driving habits. These were not stated conditions when I purchased the software, and I do not see language in my MVPA that allows them to require this.
Oh, FFS. Not gonna bother with yet another armchair barrister.

You should go to Small Claims Court, get a refund for as much as your state limits SCC dollar amounts to, and then, please, just STFU.
 
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EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
11,601
32,218
Seattle, WA
To be able to meet what they originally sold me, I would have to be provided with a L2 city streets system which lacks camera based DMS, and does not track your manual driving habits.
Do you have the text of what was stated when you bought it (whatever the it is here - AP / EAP / FSD).

BTW, yes, I agree with your point. But the fsd beta - doesn't say anything about what you might eventually get or not get. Just an early access test system.
 
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Saabstory88

Guest
Oh, FFS. Not gonna bother with yet another armchair barrister.

You should go to Small Claims Court, get a refund for as much as your state limits SCC dollar amounts to, and then, please, just STFU.
Am I crazy to want to know what I agreed to? Why would you be mean about it? Is there only one correct sanctioned way to feel about how this product is being delivered? That level of mean-ness feels inappropriate
 
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Saabstory88

Guest
Do you have the text of what was stated when you bought it (whatever the it is here - AP / EAP / FSD).

BTW, yes, I agree with your point. But the fsd beta - doesn't say anything about what you might eventually get or not get. Just an early access test system.
I have been trying to determine that. I was hoping that someone else had been down the rabbit hole and would know where to look. I suppose way back machine and looking at the web page? Just looking through my purchase docs, I'm kind of stumped finding anything more detailed than "Full Self Driving Capability".

Thanks for taking the time to understand.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
11,601
32,218
Seattle, WA
I have been trying to determine that. I was hoping that someone else had been down the rabbit hole and would know where to look. I suppose way back machine and looking at the web page? Just looking through my purchase docs, I'm kind of stumped finding anything more detailed than "Full Self Driving Capability".

Thanks for taking the time to understand.
I guess wayback machine - if it has a snapshot that covers your purchase time - would be helpful. There are also many fsd terms images you can find here at TMC and also through general web search.

But ofcourse, before that you have to figure out whether its worth the hassle.

Personally, I bought FSD fully knowing we may never get it but just wanted to be part of the journey. Heck, when I bought company shares 10 years back - I expected to lose all of it. Just bought the shares to support Tesla's mission. I know they are trying their best to get to FSD, which is an extremely difficult problem. So, no issues on FSD from my side.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,278
2,771
Orange County, CA
Am I crazy to want to know what I agreed to? Why would you be mean about it? Is there only one correct sanctioned way to feel about how this product is being delivered? That level of mean-ness feels inappropriate
You agreed to pay for future development towards "full self driving." With caveats regarding software validation and regulatory approval.

I suppose if they want to upgrade your hardware, you will be consistent and refuse that improvement since you didn't agree to it on purchase.
 
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Saabstory88

Guest
You agreed to pay for future development towards "full self driving." With caveats regarding software validation and regulatory approval.

I suppose if they want to upgrade your hardware, you will be consistent and refuse that improvement since you didn't agree to it on purchase.
Correct. If for example, they need to add a camera to my car to allow cabin monitoring for this package to be delivered, I will not agree to it. And that's okay. I'm not mad about that fact and I totally understand why the company feels they need to do this, it's just not something I'm comfortable with, that's all. I don't have a strong opinion that it is wrong for them to take these action in general, only insofar as it affects my relationship with the company. I understood, based on the language in MVPA, that it was my responsibility to do things like upgrade the MCU if the car was out of warranty to be able to receive updates, and I have done so. That's super clear cut, and I have zero problem with that.

I figured that it would be more straightforward to get whatever EULA language to understand what my obligations were, and what the companies were in relation to the FSD package. I don't understand why members of the community are angered by this. I seem to be lacking the proper information, I want to find that information, and be able to act upon it, that's all.
 

t3sl4drvr

Member
Sep 24, 2017
223
301
USA
Here is what I paid for: Autopilot (Sep 2017)
Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

The video on the page was quite convincing proof that the tech actually exists:


Adding credibility of Tesla's statement on delivery timeline:
Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval.
While on this page no timeline is given, Tesla claims that the feature exists and it will be delivered when it is 1) validated and 2) passed regulatory approval. Separately they stated on the order form for many years that "Navigate of City Streets" feature would be shipped "by the end of the year". Today the language has been changed to "Later"

As further evidence on how Tesla estimated the readiness of the tech:
Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year [2018].
Implying that car could be used as a robotaxi as early as in 2018. Later in 2019 at autonomy day, Tesla estimated that the robotaxis would be in production in 2020.

The reason I pulled the trigger with the car purchase was that there finally was a car that would have everything for self-drive:
All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.
 
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daniel

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2009
5,162
4,387
Kihei, HI
Yep. They were very clearly promising what would amount to L5, or at least L4, long before now. Then they realized they could not deliver, and instead of admitting that, they just quietly changed what they were promising and hoped nobody would notice.

Question: Does the current FSD beta do navigate on city streets? Or do you have to tell it to turn when desired?

I therefore do not believe that Tesla plans to honor the original deliverable, which my understanding was an L2 driver assistance feature which worked on city streets, and required hands on the wheel attention monitoring.

My impression was that they were merely still in the development & validation phase. But I don't expect them to have reliable City Streets autosteer any time soon.
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
13,641
23,157
NC
Yep. They were very clearly promising what would amount to L5, or at least L4, long before now. Then they realized they could not deliver, and instead of admitting that, they just quietly changed what they were promising and hoped nobody would notice.

Question: Does the current FSD beta do navigate on city streets? Or do you have to tell it to turn when desired?

Have you really not watched any of the bazillion videos from users of it?

It completely drives for you-- or attempts to, since it's not perfect and can't handle all situations.

Some folks have taken quite long and extensive drives with 0 interventions... though it's still in need of a fair bit of work to perform well everywhere for everyone.





My impression was that they were merely still in the development & validation phase. But I don't expect them to have reliable City Streets autosteer any time soon.

Depends on given values of reliable.

What I've seen is in a lot of rural/suburban areas what they have now is already pretty good in most situations.

In complex downtowns, areas with a lot of construction, etc it needs a fair bit more work.
 

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