All this talk about torrential rains being rare events where even humans have to pull over... I get it. Torrential rain is probably not the "must have" capability for L4/Robotaxi to be able to drive in. But how about snow? Light to moderately heavy snow covering lane lines and other road signs etc. Has anyone had a chance to put FSD v12.3.x though its paces in snowy conditions? How is it envisioned that a vision only system will cope with adverse winter conditions?
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
I have used FSD during heavy rain on freeway and city streets since 11.x.x. There were annoying messages about possibility of degradation but it handled fine. I would be harder for me to drive in those situations because I would not be able to see the lane markers.
in recent trip light rain/drizzle/light fog. I got message (appx) "FSD may be degraded due to weather conditions" but did fairly well
I had the same experience driving from Iowa to Texas. Torrential downpours so bad I could barely see the car ahead of me. FSD worked vey well even with the degraded messages. If it weren’t for FSD, I would have pulled over and waited it out.
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
I'm glad to hear, but It's probably a bad idea to let your L2 system drive in conditions where you wouldn't feel confident taking over if needed.
Agreed that much of the time (~90%) the "FSD may be degraded" messages don't noticeably compromise performance. But 10% of the time (in my experience), they do, sometimes strongly. E.g. FSD will start wanting to drive 20mph below the limit in non-ideal conditions, requiring either driving unsafely slowly (relative to the flow of traffic), or requiring a constant accelerator press to maintain appropriate speed, which then disables automatic braking. It's not safe either way to leave FSD enabled in this situation, and FSD doesn't disable itself, so I consider it an FSD failure. Of course this is still the v11 stack on highway; it will be interesting to see how the behavior changes when v12 / E2E is enabled there.
The point is, for a system that ultimately needs near-100% reliability, even very rare failures are unacceptable. Case in point: early in the Space Shuttle program, NASA management literally testified to Congress that the risk of catastrophic failure for any given flight was 1 in 100,000, based on the fact that each individual component was specced to have a 1-in-100,000 failure rate. Of course, with 1000 such components, the actual chance that at least one of them will fail on a given mission is closer to 1 in 100. (And as it turned out, the empirical failure rate was even higher than that; 2 out of 135 missions.) I'm just hoping that Tesla's (specifically Elon's) projections for FSD system reliability don't fall victim to this sort of faulty logic.
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sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I chose the route for safety - two additional intersections with left turns is clearly safer!I would say a little OT but so is most post in this thread.
It is just a funny going past your a$$ to get to your elbow. Some crazy Navigation. Guess it is practicing Robotaxi charging (not EV charging since Tesla's not doing that anymore
) by the mile or time to pad our App account. Anyone download the Robotaxi App and using it yet?
View attachment 1044601
I had a disengagement today when it chose the wrong turn lane. It was making a left turn when it had to make another left a block later but chose the outside/right left turn lane. When I looked at the navigation directions, both of the turn lanes were highlighted indicating either was acceptable. I haven’t noticed this before but I wonder how many of the incorrect turn lane issues are not because of FSD but rather because FSD is getting bad data from the nav system.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I’ve tried letting FSD drive on occasion in the winter with ice/snow. (Only when there aren’t other cars around and in situations where I can easily take over so it isn’t a safety issue.) I haven’t had a chance to test v12 but with every other version I’ve tried there is absolutely no way I’d ever let it drive in snow or slippery conditions.
There is no way Tesla will release ASS and Banish without being liable for repairs.
There's no way.
There's no way.
2018 Model 3, dual motor, long range, HW3, 185K, 2024.3.25 (V12.3.6)
Little trick I found on using average and chill. When you are on Average and the car is closing on a car ahead you know it's going to automatically change lanes, but you can see there is a line of cars closing even faster. Rather than wait for it to try to change lanes, just push the right toggle on steering wheel to the left and it will drop it from average to chill and not try to change lanes. Once line of cars go by, push it to the right and it will go back to average and automatically change lanes. I don’t like when it tries to squeeze in, I’d rather wait til they pass and then jump in. I have not programmed the button and this is the default so if you programmed yours for something else obviously it won’t work. Maybe you all knew about this and I’m a late learner. If not give it a try and see what you think.
Little trick I found on using average and chill. When you are on Average and the car is closing on a car ahead you know it's going to automatically change lanes, but you can see there is a line of cars closing even faster. Rather than wait for it to try to change lanes, just push the right toggle on steering wheel to the left and it will drop it from average to chill and not try to change lanes. Once line of cars go by, push it to the right and it will go back to average and automatically change lanes. I don’t like when it tries to squeeze in, I’d rather wait til they pass and then jump in. I have not programmed the button and this is the default so if you programmed yours for something else obviously it won’t work. Maybe you all knew about this and I’m a late learner. If not give it a try and see what you think.
zoomer0056
Active Member
Nice find. How did you figure that out, by accident, it's not documented is it?
I have noticed that too. It relied on the map to pick a lane but construction had taken away a lane. In the end we missed the exit. FSD didn't act on the new visual info.I chose the route for safety - two additional intersections with left turns is clearly safer!
I had a disengagement today when it chose the wrong turn lane. It was making a left turn when it had to make another left a block later but chose the outside/right left turn lane. When I looked at the navigation directions, both of the turn lanes were highlighted indicating either was acceptable. I haven’t noticed this before but I wonder how many of the incorrect turn lane issues are not because of FSD but rather because FSD is getting bad data from the nav system.
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
Of course not. Elon won't release them until he nicknames the latter "Tremendously Intelligent Tesla Skedaddler".
It's definitely a bad idea to let your L2 system drive in conditions you wouldn't feel confident taking over. So it's a good thing I was confident in taking over........if needed...
This.
I have used FSD in a lot of heavy downpours both in daylight and at night. Never a problem and at night it's extremely helpful. Only once with V12 did FSD disengage and that was when at least 25% of the cars on the highway pulled over to the break down lane the rain was so hard. Perhaps the hardest rain I've ever driven in. Cars that stayed on the highway were going less than 20mph. HW4, Model Y.
Hokay. I've had two memorable trips through serious rain over an extended distance. Note: A drizzle to normal folks at a standstill is quite a bit of water hitting the windshield when traveling at speed. FSD(S) reacts to the amount of water, natch, not the precipitation per hour numbers.
#1: Through the remnants of a hurricane blowing itself out through Central Connecticut and Central Massachusetts, on 11.4.9:
- Start: Light rain hitting the windshield, one gets the Warning Message about the driving being degraded. Speed set to 5 mph faster than the limit, which is the speed at which most people are traveling.
- Rain picks up. At this point, one can't go faster than 5 mph faster than the limit.
- Rain picks up some more. At this point, the speed limit that the car will travel on is limited to the official limit. So, if one is on a 65 mph road, one is not going faster than 65. Not Really Helpful if the semis are going faster than you are.
- Rain picks up some more. The speed limit the car can reach is now 5 mph slower than the official limit. So, at a 65 mph limit, 60 mph is what the car is limited to. This is a real problem since nobody is really slowing down. With a significant amount of water on the tarmac, trucks in particular kick up huge amounts of spray, leading to:
- Rain/spray picks up some more. The car says, "FSD is disabled due to weather". In other words, it gives up.
After turning right into the Mass Pike/I-90, the rain started to lessen, until by Worcester it had pretty much stopped. The above bullets worked in reverse order as the rain decreased.
#2: On the way to Texas through the Shenandoah Valley, through a North-Easter (i.e., a storm heading up to New England, taking I-81 to do so).
Pretty much the same as #1. Unlike #1, though, was traveling in the opposite direction of the storm, so got through it faster.
My opinion about all of the above: Tesla development is madly working on getting 12.x/Robotaxi fully functional. Sweating poor visibility, beyond making sure that users transition more-or-less gracefully into them doing the driving, is probably not their highest priority. Once the March of 9's truly begins (and, yeah, there are posters here who think that that's never going to happen), there'll be staff freed up to handle poor visibility.. which is something that I think NNs can handle without too much trouble, just like we handle poor visibility without too much trouble.
Speaking of that: Despite being a long time resident of the mid-Atlantic and New England, with the occasional fling in the South East, the scariest driving I've ever hand to contend with hasn't been with snow, rain, sleet, and hail: It's been these ridiculously thick fogs going up and down I-65 in Indiana. Landscape as flat as the dickens with the fog so thick that one can't see the tail lights of cars and trucks more than 100 yards up and no, I'm not kidding. Worse, the semis don't bother slowing down, so they're blowing through at 65 mph - so if one slowed to, say, 45 mph or so which would be safe, a speeding semi coming up behind one would flatten the car one was in with no trouble at all. Under these circumstances, the safest way to travel is to get behind a semi so one can just make out their taillights, then keep up. Hopefully, if they get into a crash, given their longer stopping distances, one would have time to stop and then get 'way the heck off the road before the next bunch of speeders comes down the pike.
Despite my comments that Vision Should Work OK, this is the One Place where a RADAR would be useful. Maybe. Except that if a RADAR on one's car stops the car in time, it won't do a thing for the non-RADAR vehicle coming up one's backside in the soup.
PianoAl
Active Member
The slower speed issue has bothered me less lately, in part because I've learned how to deal with it. The key is to tap the accelerator pedal whenever it's driving below your MAX setting, but be ready for it to drive too fast around upcoming turns. Often it will seem to take the turn too fast, but if you keep an eye on it, it's tolerable (although perhaps a little scary).
For Summon depends how much Tesla expands functionality. Current capability is mostly a party trick where the distance Summon works is limited and you can always stop Summon. Liability is yours. Banish is new.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
Can someone explain the end of trip UI to me?
FSD takes me to a point. It says before we get there I can press the accelerator to continue my trip. I don't want to go anywhere else so I let it bring the car to a stop. There doesn't seem to be any way to exit FSD at this point that doesn't trigger a why did you disengage prompt.
I've tried just waiting a minute, but nothing happens.
I've tried pressing the right pedal (long skinny one on the right) and that still gets me into a why did you disengage as soon as I turn the wheel.
I've tried hitting the brake pedal. Instant why why did you disengage.
I've looked for something to press on the screen and the only button that looks like it might be it is "End Trip" but no joy, I still end up at why did you disengage after that.
Am I missing a step or is there no way to avoid the why did you disengage at the end of a FSD trip?
FSD takes me to a point. It says before we get there I can press the accelerator to continue my trip. I don't want to go anywhere else so I let it bring the car to a stop. There doesn't seem to be any way to exit FSD at this point that doesn't trigger a why did you disengage prompt.
I've tried just waiting a minute, but nothing happens.
I've tried pressing the right pedal (long skinny one on the right) and that still gets me into a why did you disengage as soon as I turn the wheel.
I've tried hitting the brake pedal. Instant why why did you disengage.
I've looked for something to press on the screen and the only button that looks like it might be it is "End Trip" but no joy, I still end up at why did you disengage after that.
Am I missing a step or is there no way to avoid the why did you disengage at the end of a FSD trip?
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