FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[AlanSubie4Life]

He's only a few more negative posts away from me replying with my form-letter "You should sell your Tesla and buy something that will make you happy" responses.

Fortunately Teslas are good for a lot more than their garbage software.

To be 100% clear - I expect v12 to continue to improve, somewhat significantly. I just don’t expect it to be competent. It’s over, folks. A dead end. Done. End of road for this hardware. Any major breakthroughs will nearly certainly require something a bit more advanced than a five-year-old primitive processor.

Still: It’s not like there is some competing product out there that is much better. They are all total garbage from what I can tell, though my experience is limited. I just figure that when someone says some system is good that it must completely suck.

It’s when someone starts rattling off all the flaws of a system - then I sit up and take notice - that could be something truly remarkable!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I use FSD every day for every drive and FSD is works remarkably well for where I drive. The latter is critically important since I suspect it explains why there is so much variation from different owners.

I don’t like to be embarrassed. I do think the type of roads matter a lot.

I have high standards for a driver assist. It has to be spectacularly good. Nothing less will do.

Auto speed fixed far more speed problems for me then it created. Probably because my drives are either on controlled access highways or single lane secondary roads with speed limits between 25-45mph.

I don’t want to slow anyone down at any time when I am driving.

#1 problem is nudging FSD to move forward from an intersection.

Yes this is a big problem. As everyone has said, stops and intersections take a long time. It makes no sense and infuriates other drivers (I have never tested this).

In talking with other FSD owners when I bring this up since Alan talks about it all the time not a single person lists this as a problem for them.

Plenty of people have concurred with my assessment of the stopping behavior, right down to the specifics of the issue. Just read the posts.

 

[Electroman]

I use FSD every day for every drive and FSD is works remarkably well for where I drive. The latter is critically important since I suspect it explains why there is so much variation from different owners. 95% of my disengagements are now only for edge cases which I'm hoping v12.4 and v12.5 address the majority of them. We'll just have to wait and see.

+1. Same here. FSD drives remarkably well most drives with zero interventions. I am so used to it now that when I got my 1 week jail, I missed it badly.

 

[FSDtester#1]

Oh no - we're losing Alan! He's only a few more negative posts away from me replying with my form-letter "You should sell your Tesla and buy something that will make you happy" responses.

Beat you to it days ago.....

"

• Saturday at 3:15 PM
• #14,718

Of course, no one can deny you your dreams, no matter how much they may try to tear them apart.

I figured this out 3 years ago when I started reading your posts, and was hoping you would sell your Telsa and go back to Subaru's.
However, one can still hope and dream! "

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

+1. Same here. FSD drives remarkably well most drives with zero interventions. I am so used to it now that when I got my 1 week jail, I missed it badly.

Haha. This story definitely checks out.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[KArnold]

Elon time, "Being released tonight to early access testers, than other groups to follow in 2 to 3 days"

That's to be expected. It's 2 to 3 days on planet Musk, but that is light years away so it's much longer here.

 

[sleepydoc]

Some have never had to recalibrate. Some don't believe it fixes anything(absolutely does).

Well if the cameras need calibration it will help. Some problems are just due to the software and calibrating won't change anything.

 

[KArnold]

Some have never had to recalibrate. Some don't believe it fixes anything(absolutely does).

I never have. My FSD had the same issues that are common to all.

 

[sleepydoc]

I don’t! Haven’t we learned anything over the last five years? Yeah, at some point patterns will be broken and the problems solved, but I see no evidence of that in the near future. It’s just a darn near impossible problem. Companies actually offering product for sale cannot even get Traffic Jam Assistant to work properly without getting rear-ended!!! And that was announced years ago.

to clarify, I believe it's possible to have level 3 highway ADAS in 2 years. I dont' believe we will have level 3 everywhere

 

[Electroman]

Haha. This story definitely checks out.

Makes perfect sense.

Are you saying I am lying ?

 

[dl_jehu]

• Slowing down. I cannot remember the last time I had a problem. In talking with other FSD owners when I bring this up since Alan talks about it all the time not a single person lists this as a problem for them.

Me. All the time. Before v12 I would disengage and break manually at every stop whether on TACC of FSD. Here in lawless Florida it is pretty typical to go +15 over the speed limit and the car doesn't start to break until it is 50 feet away. Going from 60 to 0 for stopped traffic is *brutal*. Stopping for a red light with no cars is pretty smooth. Add a stack of 10 cars or just a random traffic jam and it breaks hard at the last moment.

The 60mph to a stop in 50 feet thing still happens occasionally on V12 - about 1 in 10 times. And V12 drove like a complete ass on the UF campus in Gainesville where it accelerated towards stopped cars that were making a right turn but couldn't clear the lane and "failing to multitask" where it couldn't execute a lane change into a left turn lane and slow down at the same time and barreled ahead towards stopped cars.

V10 and V11 were a hot mess for me in almost every way including stopping and I couldn't us it at all in Tampa. V12 is vastly better. I used to be really skeptical that any improvements could happen but V12 has changed things for me. I've had my first set of 0 intervention drives. But I'm going from "this is absolute trash" to "this might work someday". Still way way more stressful than driving myself.

 

[FSDtester#1]

Are you saying I am lying ?

Nope, that is his method of trolling .... The 1 thing he Has become proficient at in the last few years...

 

[gottagofast]

Tesla Owners Get Antsy Waiting for FSD V12.4, Start to Unsubscribe to Receive Latest Update

We take a look at Tesla's delay of FSD V12.4 update and what some users are doing to get the latest Tesla update

www.notateslaapp.com

 

[RDoc]

I'm near the end of the free trial and noticed that, at least on the display, when a car goes out of sight of all the cameras, it disappears. For example, if multiple lanes of traffic are crossing in front of me, when a car is hidden by a closer car, it disappears, then reappears later.

If that's what the FSD system is using for inputs, it seems to me to be very problematical. Just because you can't see a car doesn't mean you shouldn't take it's likely track into account when deciding what to do.

 

[sleepydoc]

I used to be concerned when I read your posts, now I just chuckle.

I use FSD every day for every drive and FSD is works remarkably well for where I drive. The latter is critically important since I suspect it explains why there is so much variation from different owners. 95% of my disengagements are now only for edge cases which I'm hoping v12.4 and v12.5 address the majority of them. We'll just have to wait and see.

Edge Case Disengagements-

• Detour signs. Especially during road construction. Had two yesterday.
• Hand gestures (police/road crews)
• Raised structures during road construction (very infrequently)
• Bad potholes. One every couple of days now.
• Lane selection. Not often anymore. Do get lane wobble but usually don't disengage.
• Emergency vehicles. Need to pull over. Happened today.

Interventions

• Auto speed fixed far more speed problems for me then it created. Probably because my drives are either on controlled access highways or single lane secondary roads with speed limits between 25-45mph. Almost never drive where the speed limit is 50mph or higher off the highway. I suspect most FSD users with speed problems have a much more complicated set of roads then I do. So I get why this is a significant problem Tesla needs to solve.
• #1 problem is nudging FSD to move forward from an intersection.
• Slowing down. I cannot remember the last time I had a problem. In talking with other FSD owners when I bring this up since Alan talks about it all the time not a single person lists this as a problem for them.

So I don't consider FSD is a total disaster at all. At least not for me 20 miles northwest of Boston.

Agreed - I also use FSD for almost all my driving. It performs admirably 95% of the time. It has also passed the wife acceptance test.

I don’t like to be embarrassed. I do think the type of roads matter a lot.

I have high standards for a driver assist. It has to be spectacularly good. Nothing less will do.

you must live a very disappointed life. How do you manage all of the non-spectacular drivers you're forced to share the road with?

I don’t want to slow anyone down at any time when I am driving.

What do you do when you're on a 2 lane highway and you want to drive 60 and the guy behind you wants to drive 80?

Yes this is a big problem. As everyone has said, stops and intersections take a long time. It makes no sense and infuriates other drivers (I have never tested this).

Wait - you have never tested it? How do you know? Stop signs/intersections are still slow but have significantly improved for me in 12.3.6. They are not perfect but certainly much better

Plenty of people have concurred with my assessment of the stopping behavior, right down to the specifics of the issue. Just read the posts.

I've found the stops to be perfectly fine. certainly better than my 16 year old's stops. I can't tell if my car behaves differently than yours or if you just have unreasonable expectations but based on your own statement that you expect FSD to perform 'spectacularly' and other statements you've made I suspect the issue is you expect FSD to drive how you want it to rather than in an acceptably safe manner. There is a wide range of acceptable driving styles. FSD will never match everyone's preference but that doesn't make it crap.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Are you saying I am lying ?

No! It makes perfect sense!

 

[mgs333]

• Slowing down. I cannot remember the last time I had a problem. In talking with other FSD owners when I bring this up since Alan talks about it all the time not a single person lists this as a problem for them.

So I don't consider FSD is a total disaster at all. At least not for me 20 miles northwest of Boston.

Just to add onto Alan's reply, the braking behavior is terrible in my car as well. It'll slow down too early too abruptly, then coasts painfully slowly all the while the braking pulses stronger/weaker/stronger/weaker. It's demonstrated very well here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1785099119306158519

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes this is a big problem. As everyone has said, stops and intersections take a long time. It makes no sense and infuriates other drivers (I have never tested this).

In other words, it infuriates you but you have no idea if it infuriates others. I can tell you that I let FSD V12.3.6 do everything, and very rarely intervene, and I have never gotten honked at, so if they are infuriated, they are keeping it to themselves. (And there are way more human drivers that do way more stupid and infuriating things, for which I do hear people honking about.)

I have high standards for a driver assist. It has to be spectacularly good. Nothing less will do.

That is totally a you problem. Most people do not have your impossibly high standards; that most humans wouldn't even meet.

Plenty of people have concurred with my assessment of the stopping behavior, right down to the specifics of the issue. Just read the posts.

Just because I agree that it sometimes stops further back from the line than I would, doesn't mean I think anything needs to be done about it. It is not on my list of things to complain to Tesla about. It is a non-issue as far as I am concerned.

Just like the long slow, grandfather like, stops that it makes sometimes are a non-issue. (It sort of rides the available limited regen.) Shoot you say you like to stop 100% on regen, no physical brakes, and to do that in my area you would have to start slowing way earlier, and take way longer. (It is still cold enough here that I don't have 100% regen available on most of my drives, even after 15 minutes of preconditioning before I leave and an hour of city street driving.)

 

[sleepydoc]

I'm near the end of the free trial and noticed that, at least on the display, when a car goes out of sight of all the cameras, it disappears. For example, if multiple lanes of traffic are crossing in front of me, when a car is hidden by a closer car, it disappears, then reappears later.

If that's what the FSD system is using for inputs, it seems to me to be very problematical. Just because you can't see a car doesn't mean you shouldn't take it's likely track into account when deciding what to do.

FSD does have some persistent memory for vehicles. It can't deduce like a human can, though. The display in v12 is less representative of what FSD is actually using/seeing than it has been in past version. Example: previous versions showed construction cones and barrels but V12 does not yet it still navigates around them so clearly the system is aware of them.

 

[mgs333]

Just like the long slow, grandfather like, stops that it makes sometimes are a non-issue. (It sort of rides the available limited regen.) Shoot you say you like to stop 100% on regen, no physical brakes, and to do that in my area you would have to start slowing way earlier, and take way longer. (It is still cold enough here that I don't have 100% regen available on most of my drives, even after 15 minutes of preconditioning before I leave and an hour of city street driving.)

I've had 1 car behind me get frustrated by the slow crawl that they drive around me and cut in front me rather dangerously. That happened 1 time but I've had cars abruptly change lanes (without trying to cut back in front me), so it's clearly annoying at least some drivers.