FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[swedge]

Yellow light duration "standards" are just suggestions, and every locality does whatever the hell they want. Mostly, they are understaffed and mess them up, or have old equipment that is hard or impossible to adjust.

No way can speed limit predict yellow light duration, and it can change with traffic conditions at the same light.

I did a fairly deep dive trying to hold a city accountable for a 3 second yellow light when the "standard" was 5 seconds for the speed. Red light camera dinged me.

Brother in law is a traffic engineer one city over. He called the other city engineer and asked about it. They had old equipment that took an hour to fiddle with, just to get it to 3 seconds, so they never adjusted it.

Don't even start to think anyone is going to predict yellow light duration as a function of speed limit. Not going to happen.

Plus, the redlight camera contractor published marketing material suggesting cities find the shortest yellow lights they have to install the cameras, for higher revenue. Nice little racket they have there, don't want to rock that boat.

Random thought here. How about in the background, Tesla cars measure the yellow light durations at each intersection, report them to the mother ship, and this parameter gets added to the map data. Auto update when needed. Problem solved?

And while they are at it, how about same for pot holes, speed bumps and other relevant road conditions?

Patent this, protect the proprietary collection of unpublished but public data, and license it to competitors, like with SuperChargers.

 

[Ben W]

One would think if it was coded in they would code the standard for the speed limit dictating the time the light stays yellow, but if it's just fed videos, who knows if it will ever draw a conclusion on how long the yellow signal will be and just stops when it sees yellow.

Different states have different laws regarding yellow lights. In some states (e.g. CA), as long as you enter the intersection while the light is still yellow, you're good. In other states, if you can safely stop for a yellow light, you must stop. And in others, it's illegal to accelerate to get through a yellow light. It's not clear how FSD is handling these variations, but it's possible that Tesla is deliberately erring on the side of caution for now and always taking the most conservative approach that will be legal everywhere.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Under the assumption it’s always level 2.

Very safe assumption.

At some point as the technology progresses, if end to end is what ultimately allows for the advancement, it would have to be an issue.

Yeah it could, but that will look so different, it is not really relevant to the current hardware and situation.

They’ll figure it out then and it will be really good at reacting to yellow lights. One of the less challenging problems.

They might even figure it out with current hardware if they can get reaction time down.

We’ve got a solid L2 system here folks! There’s no need to talk about anything more. It’s not happening with these cars. Reliability and capability not there. And it does not need to be. All is well.

 

[Nick Windham]

Just got it on 2 cars. Guess it is going wide.

Installed today on 2023 MYLR HW4.

 

[drtimhill]

Yea how does it make its decision at the yellow light, wouldn’t it have to think on its own kind of?

Not at all. Computers of all kinds makes "decisions" all the time, but they dont think. It's purely a mechanical process .. how fast is the car driving, how close it is to the entrance to the intersection, how close is the car behind etc. Grossly simplifying, the NN will be weighted based on these (and other) factors to make a "stop or continue"decision.

 

[drtimhill]

Would the NHTSA allow such a set of arbitrary actions? Yellow light duration has a standard programmed into them that correlates with the speed limit on any given road

While there may be federal recommendations, I dont think there are enforced standards .. there have been many (stupid) cases of municipalities SHORTENING the yellow light time purely to get more red light violations and generate more revenue via fines (after all, who cares about the odd extra T-bone, as long as the city gets its revenue!).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Lots of disengagements today, nothing serious, just disengaging whenever it does anything remotely wrong. Quite a lot of lane selection problems and issues changing lanes as others have pointed out. All on surface streets:
1) Drifting into turn lanes and not making it to the right location (not crossing the poorly but clearly marked bike lane promptly). Disengage.
2) Changing lanes and then deciding it's too hard.
3) Trying to merge when lanes are merging and then giving up, and finally merging when the lane runs out.
4) Not changing lanes on request. Sometimes just gives up and cancels. Sometimes it works.
5) Slowing down incorrectly. I just disengaged for this whenever it happened rather than accelerating. So disengaged whenever drifting forward like a San Diego snail, or stopping 10 feet short of a stop line (this happened here this evening after dark; just stopped on the first sensor behind the black wires crossing the street!).
6) Getting too close to curbs/islands in the middle of the road. It's kind of fun to see how close it will get to a sharp concrete divider at 50mph (I think about 1-2 feet). Looks like it wouldn't be the first time.

Definitely not ready for prime time just yet.

 

[GBMaryland]

My current big safety issue is that FSDB will attempt to drive you down a turn lane that has a dotted line….

In other words, it doesn’t like the fact that everybody in front of you is going slow, so it attempts to do the New York City a-hole maneuver where it drives down the right side of the road to cut back in front of everyone.

All made possible because Tesla has disabled the ability to tell the card not to automatically change lanes, permanently.

 

[JHCCAZ]

While there may be federal recommendations, I dont think there are enforced standards .. there have been many (stupid) cases of municipalities SHORTENING the yellow light time purely to get more red light violations and generate more revenue via fines (after all, who cares about the odd extra T-bone, as long as the city gets its revenue!).

Even worse is that the share of revenue from the red-light camera operating companies is very high, often 80 to 90% of the collected fines. Similar to a bad charity operation, the city or county gets very little, but they justify it because it's more than they got otherwise. The justification is also couched in a supposedly obvious implied life and injury saving effect, but that hasn't been clearly established and is still debated:

Red Light Cameras May Not Make Streets Safer

Fear of fines may fuel more sudden stops and rear-end accidents

www.scientificamerican.com

Having covered that, I'm still in favor of extra caution at the yellow.

I think FSD's decision should not be based on whether it can make the light before the red, but rather on whether it's far enough from the light to complete a safe* (and yes comfortable) deceleration and stop. The reason to proceed through the yellow.

* Said safety decision includes not only the ego car, but also the likely effect on a trailing car. If someone is tailgating the ego car, even though that's a bad and irresponsible thing to do, it's legitimate and certainly best to bias the yellow light decision in favor of avoiding the possible rear-end collision.​

The E2E FSD car (we think) won't be programmed with algorithms to implement all that, but reams of simulated training video clips can be used to achieve the same effect - if Tesla doesn't think the real world driving clips will give exactly the desired result.

 

[aronth5]

On another note, if 12.3.1 is actually going to go out this weekend shouldn’t Omar be getting it soon so he can hype his brains out on X to everyone.

For all we know Elon's comment about this weekend could be releasing 12.3.1 starting just with Tesla employees. Besides don't need Omar any longer to hype FSD. Just look how many positive comments we have right here!

 

[fasteddie7]

Yellow light duration "standards" are just suggestions, and every locality does whatever the hell they want.

I’m talking about the FHA standards that dictate the duration based on the posted speed limit and percentage grade approaching the light. There is a minimum that is supposed to be mandated for them based on those parameters. If it was coded for that, there’s a legal leg to stand on since those are required minimums. A single person or group of people would have a hard time fighting those municipalities but I would imagine when auto manufacturers got involved things might change? Or maybe some arrangement that provides a technology where the light talks to the vehicles and it knows exactly when it will change. Future is going to be wild.

 

[MP3Mike]

Random thought here. How about in the background, Tesla cars measure the yellow light durations at each intersection, report them to the mother ship, and this parameter gets added to the map data. Auto update when needed. Problem solved?

Patent this, protect the proprietary collection of unpublished but public data, and license it to competitors, like with SuperChargers.

I'm not sure you can patent that, as Waymo already does that. (Measure and record the yellow light durations to share with the rest of the Waymo fleet.)

 

[aronth5]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1770521247190798750

 

[Yelobird]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1770521247190798750

Always been curious, does Chuck live on that corner or simply hang out there all day hunting for Tesla’s? He is certainly committed

 

[spacecoin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1770521247190798750

Clearly this proves the massive data scalability advantage that Tesla has. Each release needs regression testing on every influencers route and then it will work fine everywhere.

 

[tivoboy]

Always been curious, does Chuck live on that corner or simply hang out there all day hunting for Tesla’s? He is certainly committed

I THINK he lives somewhere up the street based on where he used to start all the videos before..

 

[PianoAl]

Not changing lanes on request. Sometimes just gives up and cancels. Sometimes it works.

I've seen this for quite a while with earlier versions. It does the light-blue thing with the lane you want, but stays in the current lane. PSA: The workaround is to immediately cancel with a half depress of the stalk, then re-request.

I've noticed that with 12.3, it sometimes does not display the light blue path on the target lane.

 

[kriskros91]

I've seen this for quite a while with earlier versions. It does the light-blue thing with the lane you want, but stays in the current lane. PSA: The workaround is to immediately cancel with a half depress of the stalk, then re-request.

I've noticed that with 12.3, it sometimes does not display the light blue path on the target lane.

Yes this is extremely annoying and I notice it often. My usual drives I am not aiming for "zero intervention". I just want it to help reduce the drudgery of driving. But when I want to change lanes - I WANT TO CHANGE LANES. I don't want it to cancel my lane change just because it doesn't want to. It's really annoying. That was one of the good things about V10 actually - it would actively try to get over as soon as you manually asked for a lane change. This behavior in V11-12 is annoying to me. I don't believe in Musk's idea that "no input is the correct amount of input" or whatever

 

[Sweed269]

Would the NHTSA allow such a set of arbitrary actions? Yellow light duration has a standard programmed into them that correlates with the speed limit on any given road. Much like stopping at the stop sign “line” even if the car has to creep and stop again due to obstruction maintains compliance, when the car “sees” the light turn yellow, wouldn’t they force it to look at the speed limit and calculate the time and distance to see if it would be cleared legally? There are a few states that can issue a violation if the light turns red even if the vehicle is past it, if it’s determined that the vehicle could have safely stopped. The first ticket would open up a huge can of worms.

Unless they have a for profit red light camera system. Then they set the yellow to the absolute minimum.

 

[willow_hiller]

Small consolation for those that have been upgraded to the 2024 branch. You're likely to get this new Autopark before those of us on V12:

Tesla's New 'Tap to Park' Autopark Feature [Updated With Video]

Tesla has released its new 'Tap to Park' Autopark feature in Tesla update 2024.2.11, although it be currently be in internal testing

www.notateslaapp.com