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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
OP said
So .. he saved ~ $600 by spending around 150 hours at ChaDemo chargers. Let me summarize one perspective of this thread:
If you use your car to make $4 an hour by "saving" on home charging on an almost daily basis, the battery will suffer the consequences. People can continue to argue until they are blue in the face, but DC charging is highly likely to be harder on the battery than AC charging at home. His behavior is relevant because most people with a home charger will not mimic his foolish charging routines and this battery issue will never come up.
gabeincal
Active Member
Why is he foolish for potentially charging at work every day at the provided ChaDeMo charger?? I'm not getting the derogatory comments on somebody using 1 type of Tesla supported charging infrastructure...
False. This affects a lot of people, it's not a big effect, but it does impact a lot of owners.
If you do road trips, you can easily hit 245 DC charging events in a few years. I'm 2 years in, I'd guess I've made a dozen trips to NYC (4 charging stops, round trip), a trip to SC (8 charging stops, round trip), and maybe half a dozen to MA (7 charging stops, round trip). So in 2 years, I've made almost 100 charging stops. By year 5, I'll start to see [likely minor] slowdowns using the SpC assuming the magic number is around 250 and my battery is one that will be affected and Tesla is actually throttling the SpCs. Lots of assumptions, but it does impact me directly.
You can argue that I take a lot of trips, but that's one of the reasons I bought the Tesla.
O yeah, and I have a NEMA 14-50 at home to charge off of. So you can't say I'm being pound wise and penny foolish
.
Given that this is exactly how Tesla solved the Ludicrous countergate, I wouldn't put it past Tesla to do the same here. Just reduce power to all older cars, especially once they sell newer cars with better batteries...
.. and why is that a problem? Seriously. Why is that a problem?
Do you expect your car - or any ICE car - to have the same performance characteristics in year 5 after 100K miles or more, as a new one? This is IDIOCY folks.
Cars - like any other electro-mechanical item - degrade. Simple.
You don't know that, though.
For all we know, Tesla is ramping up this change to all cars just now, so it could affect much more Supercharger users in the longer run. Perhaps enough to cripple the Supercharger advantage in a way.
This is just like the Ludicrous counters. First we hear or one, then a second and soon it is a sign of a new problem mushrooming overnight into something bigger.
This was a car with only 30,000 miles, right? Someone charging DC for 30,000 miles is hardly out of the question, though for him it has happened in an accelerated manner (perhaps that is why his car is one of the first showing the issue)...
Finally, some are installing DC chargers in their homes. People talk of DC charging from their Tesla Powerwalls. I guess you are saying all that is now out the window?
If so, Tesla needs to come clean right now.
I already explained my point of view, in response to you, why are we going in circles
If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging
The car didn't degrade, Tesla put a limited on it. That's the difference. My 10 year old ICE will degrade, the manufacturer wont put an artificial limiter on it.
Indeed, this was the thing with Ludicrous counters as well. Putting an artificial counter/limiter is very different from natural degrading over time.
Also, like in the case of the Ludicrous counters, these are relatively new cars! The Ludicrous was some only months old, this DC charging car is 30,000 miles - not some 150,000 mile beater...
These issues are cropping up too early for comfort.
I agree with you. I'm having a hard time explaining in words why this move feels so wrong. We were not guaranteed particular charging rates. We know parts wear with use/time. These are not as bothersome. I think it's the retroactive/reactionary/backhanded rather than transparent/proactive nature of this that bothers me the most. It's the fact they take you on a test drive and say "look how fast you can supercharge, 300 mi/hr" and then sneakily dial back the charging rates after your purchase.
It just feels almost like stealing to me. It's also feels like another Tesla coverup or scam to me, where they over-promise to sell cars and then either don't deliver or back out on what they have delivered to save themselves money at the expense of customers.
I feel less and less valued as a Tesla customer every day which is sad. I thought I was part of a unique club/family, which I find on TMC but to Tesla I'm just someone to be taken advantage of to drive their stock price.
This Tesla, is exactly how you lose customers. It's not one particular action, it's a pattern of actions.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I understand your POV and mostly share it, but Tesla's apparent decision to market the car to people who will rely on urban Superchargers pushes this information into the 'should be transparent' category.
I can also well imagine this mitigation strategy affecting resale value. Would you care to buy OP's car, knowing that an undisclosed number of future DC charges uses may lead to a further cap in charger rates ? Keep in mind that so far as we know the mitigation was step-wise and there may be more to come.
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I readily grant you are ONE person who could theoretically be affected, if the sheer weight of time and miles the car accrues in the meantime does not get your car first, or just from living in an area with an annual average ambient temperature a couple degrees warmer than usual.False. This affects a lot of people, it's not a big effect, but it does impact a lot of owners.
If you do road trips, you can easily hit 245 DC charging events in a few years. I'm 2 years in, I'd guess I've made a dozen trips to NYC (4 charging stops, round trip), a trip to SC (8 charging stops, round trip), and maybe half a dozen to MA (7 charging stops, round trip). So in 2 years, I've made almost 100 charging stops. By year 5, I'll start to see [likely minor] slowdowns using the SpC assuming the magic number is around 250 and my battery is one that will be affected and Tesla is actually throttling the SpCs. Lots of assumptions, but it does impact me directly.
You can argue that I take a lot of trips, but that's one of the reasons I bought the Tesla.
O yeah, and I have a NEMA 14-50 at home to charge off of. So you can't say I'm being pound wise and penny foolish
I know already I'm not as smart as many of the people who have already commented on heat, power, and battery longevity. I would just like to know.
Realistically, what percentage of Tesla's are going to be adversely affected by OP's situation over typical use?
Sometimes, it's a no win situation between disclosing everything and disclosing nothing and being vague (superchargers are fast, and we have a theoretical maximum that you may/may not/mostly hit/mostly maybe not hit)
Personally, I do think Tesla deserves the benefit of the doubt when they take actions to extend the life of cars. Yes I would not be happy with slower launches or slower charging times, but I would take that over costlier repairs if I had to pick between two evils.
I don't have a Leaf and never looked at them seriously, but I recall them having substantial degradation issues. I don't see Chevrolet or Nissan including degradation charts with their vehicles? I know GM never said one single thing ever about the possibility of anything related to battery degradation on my two Volts.
Just as a random metric for me personally.
Had my Model X since last December. I have made two super charger stops. Would of liked to hit more, because FREE power. But not practical is not practical is not practical if it works to where I can just charge in my garage.
Realistically, what percentage of Tesla's are going to be adversely affected by OP's situation over typical use?
Sometimes, it's a no win situation between disclosing everything and disclosing nothing and being vague (superchargers are fast, and we have a theoretical maximum that you may/may not/mostly hit/mostly maybe not hit)
Personally, I do think Tesla deserves the benefit of the doubt when they take actions to extend the life of cars. Yes I would not be happy with slower launches or slower charging times, but I would take that over costlier repairs if I had to pick between two evils.
I don't have a Leaf and never looked at them seriously, but I recall them having substantial degradation issues. I don't see Chevrolet or Nissan including degradation charts with their vehicles? I know GM never said one single thing ever about the possibility of anything related to battery degradation on my two Volts.
Just as a random metric for me personally.
Had my Model X since last December. I have made two super charger stops. Would of liked to hit more, because FREE power. But not practical is not practical is not practical if it works to where I can just charge in my garage.
bcsteeve
Member
I'm a little confused on this DC vs AC rhetoric. Either it is a DC charging station (more or less) directly charging the battery, or its an AC connection to your internal charger which is converting to DC to charge the battery.
Really, it HAS to be DC... batteries are DC. Regardless of the upstream being AC or not.
I'm not saying there is or isn't something going on, but it would have to do with the amount of POWER being put through to the battery, not whether or not it is AC or DC.
I suspect the OP is seeing normal variance and annoyed the tech into giving some dumbed down response without knowing what a shitstorm he was starting.
Really, it HAS to be DC... batteries are DC. Regardless of the upstream being AC or not.
I'm not saying there is or isn't something going on, but it would have to do with the amount of POWER being put through to the battery, not whether or not it is AC or DC.
I suspect the OP is seeing normal variance and annoyed the tech into giving some dumbed down response without knowing what a shitstorm he was starting.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Actually, we were. 0-80% in 30 minutes.
That happens with technology devices all the time. Playstation removed the ability to install other operating systems on the PS3 after marketing it as a feature when it was first sold. Apple has removed or altered functionality from iOS devices through software updates many times. Microsoft forced many PCs to automatically update to Windows 10 which removed certain functionality like Windows Media Center (which was the only HTPC software that ever supported CableCards). The list goes on and on.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It's very nuanced to try to explain why this situation "feels wrong". I made a post upthread that tried to explain it.
A battery naturally degrades with internal resistance increasing is it ages. This will gradually reduce the practical charging speeds of the battery (given a thermally controlled one). If the BMS adjusts itself to account for internal resistance (thus reducing charge rate), I'm pretty sure people won't object.
The current situation feels wrong because presumably it is counter based. Counters tend to be overly conservative and somewhat arbitrary. That's why it feels wrong.
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