Ioniq 5 vs Model Y

[CRIMSON_DATE]

So you are naming EVs that use to cost $40K, back when gasoline was $2/ gallon?

And then some more vehicles that can't be bought at MSRP at all, anywhere?

Only in America will people go spend $70K to 'save' $200 fuel per month & spend another $40K on solar panels to 'save' $78 per month on their electric bill. That's some bad*ss math, let me tell ya!

When Society collapses that guy with the solar panels and the EV is going to have the only working vehicle...

 

[nate704]

So you are naming EVs that use to cost $40K, back when gasoline was $2/ gallon?

And then some more vehicles that can't be bought at MSRP at all, anywhere?

Only in America will people go spend $70K to 'save' $200 fuel per month & spend another $40K on solar panels to 'save' $78 per month on their electric bill. That's some bad*ss math, let me tell ya!

Classic example of virtue signaling! I always tell people that I bought an EV because it is fast. I’m not trying to save money for environment.
You can buy supercar fast for $70k. =)

 

[CRIMSON_DATE]

Classic example of virtue signaling! I always tell people that I bought an EV because it is fast. I’m not trying to save money for environment.
You can buy supercar fast for $70k. =)

I can care less about the car being fast, the environment or saving money on expensive fuel , its more important that I always have a working car available . Gas lines/outages happen every time a hurricane is in range here in florida (and longer when they actually make landfall) and we have all seen what happens when one pipeline fails . One event can put a good portion of the country out of commission. As long as the lights stay on( or my gen does) I have a working car and thats why I pay up for an EV.

 

[sleepydoc]

So you are naming EVs that use to cost $40K, back when gasoline was $2/ gallon?

And then some more vehicles that can't be bought at MSRP at all, anywhere?

Only in America will people go spend $70K to 'save' $200 fuel per month & spend another $40K on solar panels to 'save' $78 per month on their electric bill. That's some bad*ss math, let me tell ya!

We looked at getting solar panels. $30k initial outlay, 14 year ROI, 30+ year lifespan, net profit approximately $30k.

It strikes me that the real problem is you are not very good at math.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Classic example of virtue signaling! I always tell people that I bought an EV because it is fast. I’m not trying to save money for environment.
You can buy supercar fast for $70k. =)

This is all I've said the entire time, buy an EV because their fun and convenient because saving actual money buying an EV at current prices is a fool's errand.

This will change in time I'm certain but we are not there yet.

 

[Whtrbt7]

We looked at getting solar panels. $30k initial outlay, 14 year ROI, 30+ year lifespan, net profit approximately $30k.

It strikes me that the real problem is you are not very good at math.

I really want solar panels but that depends on the wife. I think it’s closer to $40k for me for about a 1.2 mW/month setup with power walls.

 

[Suns_PSD]

We looked at getting solar panels. $30k initial outlay, 14 year ROI, 30+ year lifespan, net profit approximately $30k.

It strikes me that the real problem is you are not very good at math.

LOL.

In the meantime place that initial $30K in the S&P 500 and at the last decade's average returns of 14.5% compounded annually you'd have $199,709 at the end of 14 years.

In 30 years you'd have over 1.7 million dollars!

So you only lost 1.7 million minus $60k in saved electrical costs buying those solar panels in 30 years! Ha.

Compound Interest Calculator | Investor.gov

Determine how much your money can grow using the power of compound interest.

www.investor.gov

 

[sleepydoc]

LOL.

In the meantime place that initial $30K in the S&P 500 and at the last decade's average returns of 14.5% compounded annually you'd have $199,709 at the end of 14 years.

In 30 years you'd have over 1.7 million dollars!

So you only lost 1.7 million minus $60k in saved electrical costs buying those solar panels in 30 years! Ha.

Compound Interest Calculator | Investor.gov

Determine how much your money can grow using the power of compound interest.

www.investor.gov

Oh, now I get it - you think one should never spend money on anything and just invest it in the stock market. Of course you're also ignoring the monthly income from your solar panels that you can now invest as well as the environmental benefit. And the fact that the return will increase as fuel prices increase. You have fun with your investing, the rest of us will enjoy our lives.

I do have a question, for you, if Teslas are such a horrendous waste of money, why didn't you buy a chevy spark instead? you could have saved $40k, and been a happy millionaire in 30 years.

 

[sleepydoc]

I really want solar panels but that depends on the wife. I think it’s closer to $40k for me for about a 1.2 mW/month setup with power walls.

Our quote didn't include the power walls - they really wouldn't make sense for our needs. A lot depends on your local utility as well as the reliability of your electric service.

I think you mean 1.2 MW (megawatt), not mW (milliwatt), though!

 

[Suns_PSD]

Oh, now I get it - you think one should never spend money on anything and just invest it in the stock market. Of course you're also ignoring the monthly income from your solar panels that you can now invest as well as the environmental benefit. And the fact that the return will increase as fuel prices increase. You have fun with your investing, the rest of us will enjoy our lives.

I do have a question, for you, if Teslas are such a horrendous waste of money, why didn't you buy a chevy spark instead? you could have saved $40k, and been a happy millionaire in 30 years.

Actually I'm doing a DIY Solar System array on a home I'm building now that is being built. It's 807 kWh/ month for $8.1K after federal refund if your curious (assumes 4.5 hours of sunlight/ day). It has a 7.5 year break even point not including lost opportunity to have made money with that $8K in those years.

The difference is that I KNOW it's not a money making venture, I just like it. Furthermore in my scenario (new & long term home, no trees, sunny state, new roof, soon to have 2 EVs) if electricity rates increase substantially I could in fact do okay on solar as a break even investment.

You accused me of being bad at math and when I pointed out the actual calculations and it illustrated your folly you then attacked me in another way.

My point to those that don't understand the power of money in your investments (cars are not investments) is the exact same as it was many posts ago: Buying an EV is not a money saving venture unless you have very specific circumstances. If saving money is your primary concern, look elsewhere at this time. If you need a new car, an inexpensive reliable ICE car is your smart financial move. even if you need/ want an ICE car equivalent to a Tesla, you will still save money.

 

[Quinn13]

I am only aware of a couple of 'in the $40K range' EVs but it seems those are sort of equivalent to a sub $25K 40mpg getting economy car. So that should be the equivalent comparable.


The insurance quotes I've seen for EVs represent an increase that's basically equal to an entire annual fuel bill on an economy car. The number of multi-thousand dollar non-warrantable repairs on Tesla's in particular is concerning to me.

Like you said, everyone has a different situation, but for me the 'math' part of the EV equation doesn't work out at current prices. However just like I've ordered the upgraded engine many times before, I WANT an EV.

A few pages up someone compared running costs of their A8, which is a high end unreliable German luxury car. I don't think the Y is comparable in any way feature/ content/ driving dynamics wise to a high end German sedan. From a content perspective I'd be more likely to compare the Y to a well appointed Corolla personally. Yes I know EVs are very nice to drive in a way that ICE can't be. But that's the EV, not the Tesla.

So the point still remains: take your purchase price savings and invest them in a decent fund and compare the numbers in 5 years. The inexpensive, totally reliable, high mpg ICE vehicle will be very hard to beat.

My insurance for our Model 3 is the same per month as our Hyundai Crossover SUV, so our insurance didn't go up at all, so its a fallacy to declare automatically that insurance would eat up your gas savings.

Also, there is zero routine maintenance on the car, which if you factor in how much less often you'll get brakes updates, various belts, oil changes, etc, maintenance is way less. 15 months into ownership, my only maintenance expense is for windshield washer fluid.

Having owned a Corolla way back in the day, the car is not a Corolla in any regard, whether from performance, looks, etc. You making that comparison makes it feel as if you aren't really making good faith comparisons. Not sure what crossover you'd put as the comparison point for a Model Y, but most are in the $40K's right now, and none of them are getting 35mpg. Also, if you'd invested the $20K gap in the market this year.....well you'd now have $16K, and a way less fun and enjoyable car, and you'd still have to go to the gas station all the time, and get your oil changes too.

I'll stick with my EV, and the $20/mth i'm paying on my electric bill for 1,500 miles a month of driving instead of $180/mth that would cost to fuel up on gas at current prices.

 

[sleepydoc]

Actually I'm doing a DIY Solar System array on a home I'm building now that is being built. It's 807 kWh/ month for $8.1K after federal refund if your curious (assumes 4.5 hours of sunlight/ day). It has a 7.5 year break even point not including lost opportunity to have made money with that $8K in those years.

ah, so everyone else is a fool for not investing the money but you're not?

The difference is that I KNOW it's not a money making venture, I just like it. Furthermore in my scenario (new & long term home, no trees, sunny state, new roof, soon to have 2 EVs) if electricity rates increase substantially I could in fact do okay on solar as a break even investment.

You assume no one else knows this. Trust me, you're not some guru that has insights that no one else does. I and many others are well aware of the indirect costs.

You accused me of being bad at math and when I pointed out the actual calculations and it illustrated your folly you then attacked me in another way.

no, you added factors and ignored others. I (and most others here) am perfectly capable of doing a more complex calculation but you seemed more interested in a simplistic look at the S&P 500.

My point to those that don't understand the power of money in your investments (cars are not investments) is the exact same as it was many posts ago: Buying an EV is not a money saving venture unless you have very specific circumstances.

When did anyone say their car is a money making investment? This is just some narrative you post to try and discredit other people's decisions (that you turn around and make yourself.) Looking at gas and maintenance savings is simply an attempt to get a better comparison of the true costs of ownership.

 

[Suns_PSD]

All experiences are personal I guess.

Re: Maintenance: I spend about $150/ year maintaining my truck (just synthetic oil changes) and have averaged 20K miles/ year in 4.75 years of ownership.

In my readings, it doesn't appear that anyone can do 150K miles on a Tesla spending around $1-1.5K in maintenance total. I'd consider my maintenance expenses typical for any good quality ICE vehicle (GM, Toy, Honda, Nissan, etc.) based on having owned a couple of dozen high mileage vehicles. Obviously others have had different experiences.

Have yet to see the magical high mileage 'maintenance free' EV car.

 

[Suns_PSD]

ah, so everyone else is a fool for not investing the money but you're not?

You assume no one else knows this. Trust me, you're not some guru that has insights that no one else does. I and many others are well aware of the indirect costs.

no, you added factors and ignored others. I (and most others here) am perfectly capable of doing a more complex calculation but you seemed more interested in a simplistic look at the S&P 500.

When did anyone say their car is a money making investment? This is just some narrative you post to try and discredit other people's decisions (that you turn around and make yourself.) Looking at gas and maintenance savings is simply an attempt to get a better comparison of the true costs of ownership.

You officially 'win'.

I've enjoyed enough of your logic.

~ take care

 

[CRIMSON_DATE]

All experiences are personal I guess.

Re: Maintenance: I spend about $150/ year maintaining my truck (just synthetic oil changes) and have averaged 20K miles/ year in 4.75 years of ownership.
In my readings, it doesn't appear that anyone can do 150K miles on a Tesla spending around $1-1.5K in maintenance

Most all the maintainance on a tesla are the Tires and you didn't even include tire or brake cost in your maintainance of your truck

 

[Quinn13]

Most all the maintainance on a tesla are the Tires and you didn't even include tire or brake cost in your maintainance of your truck

And at 150K miles, there are some belts that are well overdue for replacement, cause if those go, well, bad things happen in the engine. Anyone arguing that an ICE engine requires lower maintenance than an electric motor that has a fraction of the moving parts is again, making arguments in very bad faith.

 

[sleepydoc]

And at 150K miles, there are some belts that are well overdue for replacement, cause if those go, well, bad things happen in the engine. Anyone arguing that an ICE engine requires lower maintenance than an electric motor that has a fraction of the moving parts is again, making arguments in very bad faith.

Amazing that at 95k he hasn't needed to service the transmission or brakes, either.

 

[BigNerd]

So you are naming EVs that use to cost $40K, back when gasoline was $2/ gallon?

And then some more vehicles that can't be bought at MSRP at all, anywhere?

Only in America will people go spend $70K to 'save' $200 fuel per month & spend another $40K on solar panels to 'save' $78 per month on their electric bill. That's some bad*ss math, let me tell ya!

I'm pretty sure Leafs can be had at that price now... they actually have a very aggressive lease program if you just want to borrow an EV for 18 months.

I apologize that I haven't been actively shopping EVs lately, but I know Konas and even Niros can be had for MSRP and then you factor in the $7500 Fed and you are below $40k.

The mid-upper tier (ID4, EV6, Ioniq5, Niro, BZ4X, Mach-E) can be ordered for MSRP or if you're lucky, bought at a dealer for little or no markup (depending on where you live).

The point is... there are $40k EVs out there so it's not spending $70k for everyone.

 

[chinney]

GM announced today that the 2023 model year Bolt EV will start at $26,595 US - a significant price cut at a time where other EV manufacturers are increasing prices. Sure, it is the Bolt, but GM seems to have fixed the major problem with the batteries and I know some who have researched it who say that it is a pretty good car, and especially so for the money.

 

[orion2001]

LOL.

In the meantime place that initial $30K in the S&P 500 and at the last decade's average returns of 14.5% compounded annually you'd have $199,709 at the end of 14 years.

In 30 years you'd have over 1.7 million dollars!

So you only lost 1.7 million minus $60k in saved electrical costs buying those solar panels in 30 years! Ha.

Compound Interest Calculator | Investor.gov

Determine how much your money can grow using the power of compound interest.

www.investor.gov

I've done the detailed math involved in comparing a solar install over a 30 year timeframe compared to investing in the S&P, and you still come out ahead over that timeframe, and depending on the cost of solar and electricity where you live, you can come out significantly ahead.