No, the 800V architecture only allows conductors to be reduced in size. The cells themselves and their chemistry limit charge rate. A larger cell, which Hyundai is using, also makes heat dissipation more of a problem. I share the concern that we will see more pronounced battery degradation with frequent fast charging unless they have done something special with battery chemistry.
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Ioniq 5 vs Model Y
- Thread starter WADan
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I've been curious about that too. I don't see how they can do what they are without pushing the pack too hard.
Then again, people used to say that about supercharging, but Teslas handle it really well now.
Maybe but I always assumed that 800V had way less heat introduced to the system so overall, they were maximizing the batteries capabilities. Right now, cars with a lot of DC fast charging don't seem to be experiencing much higher degradation than cars charged at home...not to mention calendar aging seems to be the biggest component of degradation overall.
Go to the Ioniq 5 forums and some people have been charging exclusively on the EA network as its free for them and they don't seem to be having any loss in range but of course, its only a couple years since the car has been out globally. Of course, Hyundai's 10 yr warranty doesn't hurt either
thesmokingman
Active Member
You’re conflating the supply voltage for charging with the cell voltage. 800V doesn’t produce less heat, it just allows the conductor size to be reduced. The cells generate the heat that must be managed when charging, and operate at much lower voltage (2.5-4.2 volt I believe for a 21700 cell).Maybe but I always assumed that 800V had way less heat introduced to the system so overall, they were maximizing the batteries capabilities. Right now, cars with a lot of DC fast charging don't seem to be experiencing much higher degradation than cars charged at home...not to mention calendar aging seems to be the biggest component of degradation overall.
Go to the Ioniq 5 forums and some people have been charging exclusively on the EA network as its free for them and they don't seem to be having any loss in range but of course, its only a couple years since the car has been out globally. Of course, Hyundai's 10 yr warranty doesn't hurt either
Once we start to see high mileage EV6 or Ioniq 5 it’ll be very telling whether or not they are pushing it too fast.
Everything i've read says 400V produced more heat in the system than an 800V system. Battery may be limited but everything in between generates more heat with lower volts.
Why did Porsche go to the trouble of designing an 800 V Taycan EV? - Charged EVs
How higher-voltage battery packs enable faster charging ecosystems Porsche took on a considerable engineering challenge when it decided to design an 800 V EV system for the Taycan, because nearly every other hybrid and EV in the world operates at 400 V or less. There simply was not a wide range...
chargedevs.com
Ionic 5 brags 10% to 80% in 18 minutes, converted to miles for 266-mile range dual motor model that 186 miles. Model Y can charge up to 200 miles in 15 minutes at a Supercharger. Maybe bragging rights should always be in miles per minute.
Personally even if someone is able to knock 5 minutes off a 200 mile or so charge that wouldn't carry much weight with me as to deciding between 2 vehicles. Now If you could get a 200 mile charge in 5 or 10 minutes that would be significant IMHO. After I've been driving for 2.5 hours or so I'm ready for a break anyway. Ideally making any charge 20 minutes or less would be perfect.
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My real world range for the Y is ~240 miles on the highway. 200 miles takes 80% and that takes more than 15 minutes.
The Ioniq 5 charges faster in miles per minute added too.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Power is I*V (Current * Volts), V = I*R so P = I^2 * REverything i've read says 400V produced more heat in the system than an 800V system. Battery may be limited but everything in between generates more heat with lower volts.
Why did Porsche go to the trouble of designing an 800 V Taycan EV? - Charged EVs
How higher-voltage battery packs enable faster charging ecosystems Porsche took on a considerable engineering challenge when it decided to design an 800 V EV system for the Taycan, because nearly every other hybrid and EV in the world operates at 400 V or less. There simply was not a wide range...
This says the power dissipated goes up with the square of the current. Doubling the voltage halves the current giving 1/4 the power dissipation. Since conductor size is determined by current, all the conductors can be smaller or, alternatively, you can double the power transferred while keeping the conductor size the same.
At an individual cell level, the charging voltage and current are dictated by the chemistry and cell design. If you double the voltage that means that voltage has to be divided across twice as many cells. The current per cell will be the same but the total power dissipated by the battery cells and thus the entire battery pack will double as well.
What all this means is you potentially reduce the power dissipation by all the other components involved because you have a lower total current. You can charge the battery faster but you will have more heat built up in the battery pack unless you have adequate cooling designed into the system to dissipate that extra heat.
Another approach is to oversize the battery so you are only using the middle portion of the charging curve where charging can occur most rapidly. This occurs at the expense of a larger battery for a given range. I don’t know if Hyundai takes this approach or not.
It's the same issue on every car forum. Some people take any critique of their decision personally so they respond irrationally.
Many people think Tesla is the be all end all of car manufacturers. Factually this couldn't be further from the truth.
They are pioneers in the EV realm without question. But as a car manufacturer they are still in their infancy and are dealing with expected quality control and service issues.
Anyone that thinks otherwise is merely uneducated about the mass market automotive industry.
This post is in no way meant to be offensive or directed at any one person.
We need to remember that we don't know what we don't know. And the only way to change that is education.
So, you switched from a model 3 to Y? How do you like it? The suspension on our Model 3 is horrible and you feel every bump .I love most everything else about it and the charging and availability and ease of charging is a winner.
Of course they do. The charge curve is just fast enough to make up for it:
Hyundai Ioniq 5 Amazes: Real Fast Charging Session Data Analyzed
Here we have a real treat for EV enthusiasts - a comprehensive, fast charging analysis of the brand new Hyundai Ioniq 5, based on the real world data.
insideevs.com
Although given the state of the CCS network vs superchargers in the southeast, the Y will still beat it in the real world on most trips.
I changed to the MY from the M3 mainly because my wife had trouble getting in/out of the M3. I was one of the first wave of MY owners and the suspension has been improved since I'm told but even so, the ride in mine is just fine IMHO. It's also much quieter than the 2018 M3 I had. The latest suspension now delivering should be a step up from your M3 if it's an older model but if newer I couldn't tell you - subjective in any case. Sitting up higher in the MY is definitely a plus.
The charging network is the biggest plus for any Tesla, along with the software of course. Would love to have more features (HUD, soft close doors, 360 parking, etc...) so hoping competition gives us more options soon and forces Tesla to up their game. Still love my MY overall but will be open to a new version or possibly a competitor if they seem like a viable option in another year/year and a half or so.
Tha_Ape
Active Member
Miles per minute is the right way to compare charging. It takes into account charging speed (kW) and efficiency (mi/kWh). So while some cars are more efficient, charging speed can make up for it (though it will generally cost more per mile)
Model Y wins
No it doesn’t. It isn’t reasonable to compare ideal for one vehicle versus one person’s “real world” for another. I’ll point to Ioniq 5 owners that have reduced real world range as a counterpoint. The 2022 dual motor Model Y is EPA rated at 280 wh/mi and the dual motor Ioniq 5 is rated 340 wh/mi. Looking at rated consumption, the Ioniq 5 needs to charge 21% faster to go the same distance in the same charge duration, which it doesn’t based on what I’ve seen. Note, this is not a head to head 10-80% comparison as battery pack sizes and efficiencies are different.
The I5 charges 50% faster from 10-80%. I’ve observed my EV6 blow away my M3P in terms of charging and my M3P is the faster charging 2019 version. I’ve done multiple road trips in both cars and my observation is that if infrastructure is the same, the EV6 would be a faster road trip car.
I usually plugged in for 10-15 min for a 350kw charger. It really boogies. I was at 65% and pulling 150kw and no way my M3P does that. The issue is, half the chargers were broken. Right now, Teslas are simply better road trip cars because of infrastructure. If infrastructure was equal, no reason the I5 or EV6 wouldn’t be faster on a road trip
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