IRS definitions of what's a car vs SUV by manufacturer for $55k vs $80k price limit

[Pricedm]

To be honest I do think it's fair. Model Y does not look like SUV from any angle.

7 seater qualifying due to VAN category.

Ford Escape hybrid is defined as SUV under the IRS regs; qualifies for $7,500 tax credit. Does it "...look like SUV from any angle?"

Same with some variants of VW ID4....a heavier, less energy efficient BEV compared to Tesla Model Y.

Point of the OP-- IRS definitions defy logic. I concur. Basic problem is the encouragement by tax code to produce inefficient products.

 

[ucmndd]

Ford Escape hybrid is defined as SUV under the IRS regs; qualifies for $7,500 tax credit. Does it "...look like SUV from any angle?"

Yes, it actually does - it looks like an SUV from the angles that matter - ground clearance, approach angle, departure angle, axle clearance, and breakover angle.

This is what defines an SUV, and what has defined an SUV for decades per the department of transportation.

The Model Y meets none of these requirements. The Escape does.

Same with some variants of VW ID4....a heavier, less energy efficient BEV compared to Tesla Model Y.

4WD versions of the ID.4 meet the clearance requirements above to be classified as a non-passenger utility vehicle. The Y doesn’t, because it’s a tall-ish car with zero off-road/utility aspirations.

Point of the OP-- IRS definitions defy logic.

For seemingly the 100th time, they are not IRS definitions. They are vehicle code regulations that have been in place for decades. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

 

[zoomer0056]

Market (made of producers, consumers and influencers) incentives are influencers.

 

[yobigd20]

It makes me sick to think we’ve manifested this perverse scheme to turn real energy into heat and imaginary money by using our vast computational resources to endlessly perform meaningless calculations.

Humans are the worst type of trash.

I guess that makes amazon and microsoft and google and apple and anyone else who owns datacenters and computer businesses trash then too huh.

Idiodic and narrow sighted comments like this is why i left these forums years ago. Seems like not much has changed.

 

[RoBoRaT]

Yes, it actually does - it looks like an SUV from the angles that matter - ground clearance, approach angle, departure angle, axle clearance, and breakover angle.

This is what defines an SUV, and what has defined an SUV for decades per the department of transportation.

The Model Y meets none of these requirements. The Escape does.


4WD versions of the ID.4 meet the clearance requirements above to be classified as a non-passenger utility vehicle. The Y doesn’t, because it’s a tall-ish car with zero off-road/utility aspirations.


For seemingly the 100th time, they are not IRS definitions. They are vehicle code regulations that have been in place for decades. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Got it.
What's ground clearance required to be classified as SUV?

 

[flgatorfan]

But it’s not FAIR. The government cabal is discriminating against Tesla.

While it's clear there's no "discrimination" here it's pretty stupid that the same vehicle plus two seats is magically a SUV, adding passenger capacity to qualify as a non-passenger vehicle. Bozos in government should get their act together.

 

[mongo]

To be honest I do think it's fair. Model Y does not look like SUV from any angle.

7 seater qualifying due to VAN category.

SUV category...

Sport utility vehicle (SUV) means a light truck with an extended roof line to increase cargo or passenger capacity, cargo compartment open to the passenger compartment, and one or more rear seats readily removed or folded to facilitate cargo carrying.

Yes, it actually does - it looks like an SUV from the angles that matter - ground clearance, approach angle, departure angle, axle clearance, and breakover angle.

The PHEV version is <6k lbs gross (3,900 curb) and is not 4WD so it fails (b)(1)
Escape ground clearance is same as 'Y non performance with 2 passengers' 6.8 inches.
Per https://www.carindigo.com/ford/escape-plug-in-hybrid-suv/dimensions

Got it.
What's ground clearance required to be classified as SUV?

20cm (7.9 inches) is the regulation

While it's clear there's no "discrimination" here it's pretty stupid that the same vehicle plus two seats is magically a SUV, adding passenger capacity to qualify as a non-passenger vehicle. Bozos in government should get their act together.

Three row clause was added to help meet economy standards around 2009 (I think).

Seems they should allow cargo > passenger with second row folded. (Van-ish SUV).

 

[agevoian@gmail]

This is my first time posting in any forums, so sorry if any mistakes. I was very unhappy with the IRS rules as many of you so I'm hoping signing petition in change.org may push IRS readjust tax credit caps for some vehicles.
Here is the link I have just started: Sign the Petition

 

[ucmndd]

I guess that makes amazon and microsoft and google and apple and anyone else who owns datacenters and computer businesses trash then too huh.

Last comment on this as it’s fully and completely off-topic, but if you actually think computation in the act of performing commerce and generating value for an economy is the same thing as minting imaginary money at profound environmental cost in the name of endless greed and consumption, then you’re perfectly proving my point about humans being indiscriminate trash that deserve their imminent fate.

Idiodic and narrow sighted comments like this is why i left these forums years ago. Seems like not much has changed.

Welcome back I guess. We sure have missed you.

 

[ucmndd]

The PHEV version is <6k lbs gross (3,900 curb) and is not 4WD so it fails (b)(1)

Where are you finding GVWR for the Escape? I can’t find a good source anywhere. Curb weight and GVWR are not the same, though I agree it’s unlikely an Escape has a >6k GVWR in any case. Interesting counter example.

Escape ground clearance is same as 'Y non performance with 2 passengers' 6.8 inches.
Per https://www.carindigo.com/ford/escape-plug-in-hybrid-suv/dimensions

Hypothetically could still be eligible if the other four clearances are met. Again, can’t find a good source of info for these measurements on the Escape.

This is an interesting problem/challenge when manufacturers themselves are the ones asserting compliance or not.

 

[mongo]

Where are you finding GVWR for the Escape? I can’t find a good source anywhere. Curb weight and GVWR are not the same, though I agree it’s unlikely an Escape has a >6k GVWR in any case. Interesting counter example.

Yeah, I can't find GVWR either, but I'm pretty sure the payload capacity is less than obe ton...

Hypothetically could still be eligible if the other four clearances are met. Again, can’t find a good source of info for these measurements on the Escape.

This is an interesting problem/challenge when manufacturers themselves are the ones asserting compliance or not

I guess... if the axle were 18 cm up.
However, even on the other version of Escape with 7.8 inches of ground clearance, the approach angle is less than the 28 degree requirement.
Should You Take the Ford Escape Off Road? | GetJerry.com

 

[SageBrush]

This is an interesting problem/challenge when manufacturers themselves are the ones asserting compliance or not.

I presume the Gov reserves the right to check for themselves, and to hammer anybody they think is not in compliance.
IIRC, only around 10% of cars go through testing by the EPA itself, the remainder are tested by the manufacturers and reported to the EPA

 

[hmmwv]

What's really concerning is that on the Tesla website it now says the $7500 incentive is only through March, meaning Tesla knows that it won't qualify for the full credit as the IRA requirements stand. And more importantly it currently is not planning on become compliant by March.
As a result I'm inclined to believe Tesla will cut prices further by making the MYLR5 a $55k car, and the MYAWD5 potentially sub $50k.

 

[alexgr]

4WD versions of the ID.4 meet the clearance requirements above to be classified as a non-passenger utility vehicle. The Y doesn’t, because it’s a tall-ish car with zero off-road/utility aspirations.

ID.4 4WD Pro has the same ground clearance as the Model Y, 6.8in. Also, Escape PHEV's ground clearance is 6.9 in.

Anyway, I am pretty sure that if the IRS is forced to apply specific EPA definitions to SUVs and cars, we and the manufacturers would know that long time before this 'reveal'.

When talking about legal definitions, we must not forget that (1) these legal definitions are written by human and (2) it is the choice of the people to apply certain definitions and standards in the best interest of the people and the spirit of the law. What I see here is the application of the definitions (if we would even trust that the IRS sources the information from that specific EPA list of definitions) favors the UAW, not the people, not the environment. It is a sad situation, to say the least.

Edit: Source on Escape: 2023 Ford Escape Plug-In Hybrid Dimensions - iSeeCars.com

 

[exxxviii]

This is funny. The IRS is asking for consumer comments on the EV subsidy qualifications. Could this get any more absurd?!

Federal Register :: Request Access

 

[acpd]

What's really concerning is that on the Tesla website it now says the $7500 incentive is only through March, meaning Tesla knows that it won't qualify for the full credit as the IRA requirements stand. And more importantly it currently is not planning on become compliant by March.
As a result I'm inclined to believe Tesla will cut prices further by making the MYLR5 a $55k car, and the MYAWD5 potentially sub $50k.

Where does it says $7,500 until March?

 

[ucmndd]

Where does it says $7,500 until March?

The full $7500 tax credit is eligible to all the cars on the IRS list being discussed here until ~March because the IRS hasn’t yet released guidance on eligibility for the battery materials sourcing requirements that represent half of the credit in the Inflation Reduction Act.

It’s suspected that most if not all EVs currently on the market are going to have a very hard time meeting those requirements, and if that’s the case the available tax credit will halved to $3750.

 

[mongo]

The full $7500 tax credit is eligible to all the cars on the IRS list being discussed here until ~March because the IRS hasn’t yet released guidance on eligibility for the battery materials sourcing requirements that represent half of the credit in the Inflation Reduction Act.

It’s suspected that most if not all EVs currently on the market are going to have a very hard time meeting those requirements, and if that’s the case the available tax credit will halved to $3750.

They were asking about this:.

What's really concerning is that on the Tesla website it now says the $7500 incentive is only through March,

 

[ucmndd]

They were asking about this:.

Ah, interesting. I’m not seeing that anywhere on the Tesla site. Are you?

 

[mongo]

Ah, interesting. I’m not seeing that anywhere on the Tesla site. Are you?

Nope.