Jaguar I-Pace

[miimura]

It’s not “dire,” it’s a pain in the butt.

Strap one average new car shopper into an I-Pace and another into a Model Y. Tell them to get to [pick a city 1500 miles away]. One will actually get there, the other will choose a gas car.

You can make anything work with enough practice or patience. I’ve been driving electric for more than a decade of my life so believe me, I know.

Making something work is a non-starter for all but the die-hards. Tesla has an enormous advantage here, for now. I can pick any spot on the map and be very confident that the car will route me there accurately and that the charging stops will be in working order. This is not the case with EA or EVgo. It may be in the future but it’s not today.

I agree with what you're saying and the way you're saying it in this post is more accurate. Driving my RAV4 EV with JdeMO for a couple hundred miles is definitely a case of "making it work" that many people would not put up with. In comparison, a car with the range and charging speed of the iPace would be a delight.

However, I'm also with @SageBrush in that over the course of my life, I've personally never driven anywhere more than 600 miles away. The pandemic is the first time that I've even considered it, due to not wanting to be stuck in an aluminum tube with a bunch of strangers to fly somewhere. In fact, it's now been 2 years since I've left the SF Bay region by car. Our Model 3 hasn't even been Supercharged since October 2019. The last time before that was May 2018.

I guess that's a long way of saying that not everyone needs a car, or all their cars, to be capable of convenient long road trips.

 

[SageBrush]

I guess that's a long way of saying that not everyone needs a car, or all their cars, to be capable of convenient long road trips.

No doubt.

You have however inadvertently pressed a personal peeve button of mine. Arguments based on 'everybody' or 'not necessarily' are a waste of time. There are always corner cases. I like to think of what is true for 1 SD or 2 SD of the population. And I think it is true that 3 SD of the population will not spend $40k+ on a general purpose car that is trip limited due to refueling restrictions

 

[miimura]

No doubt.

You have however inadvertently pressed a personal peeve button of mine. Arguments based on 'everybody' or 'not necessarily' are a waste of time. There are always corner cases. I like to think of what is true for 1 SD or 2 SD of the population. And I think it is true that 3 SD of the population will not spend $40k+ on a general purpose car that is trip limited due to refueling restrictions

I understand where you're coming from. Especially for a single car family. However, most families have more than one car. I never buy two cars with similar attributes. I like my cars to have different capabilities. At various times I have owned one wagon and one sedan, one sports car and one sedan, one SUV and one sedan, etc. Owning one car that is only used "in town" is a perfectly reasonable strategy. Leasing a 2015 e-Golf with 84 mile EPA range was never a problem for my family in the 3 years we had it. There was one "learning experience" for my wife, but it wasn't a big deal.

 

[SageBrush]

I understand where you're coming from. Especially for a single car family. However, most families have more than one car. I never buy two cars with similar attributes. I like my cars to have different capabilities. At various times I have owned one wagon and one sedan, one sports car and one sedan, one SUV and one sedan, etc. Owning one car that is only used "in town" is a perfectly reasonable strategy. Leasing a 2015 e-Golf with 84 mile EPA range was never a problem for my family in the 3 years we had it. There was one "learning experience" for my wife, but it wasn't a big deal.

As an owner of a ~ 18 kWh usable LEAF in addition to our Tesla I am solidly in your camp of choosing tools to fit the job. However, I would not have paid 40k+ for our LEAF. Or anywhere near $40k.

I suppose my point here, and why I agree with @mtndrew1, is that a trip limited car is going to be a failure in the US market unless it is dirt cheap. And even then it may well fail, but an expensive, trip limited car is at best a compliance exercise.

 

[cab]

I have been impressed with the Electrify America rollout, BUT what I worry about is "What happens when Volkswagen's penance is paid?" Will the chargers fall into disrepair? Will expansion and service come to a screeching halt? Certainly none of the other carmakers have expressed any real interest in creating another network (understandable), but they barely seem to partner with anyone in much more than a token way.

Look at Ecotality who worked the whole government program to install "free" chargers for people...as soon as the government money stopped, Ecotality was bankrupt and Blink was a big "meh".

Early on I thought the smartest thing little Jaguar (and Volvo) could have done was partner with Tesla to use their Supercharger network. They are niche makers and so they wouldn't suddenly "flood" the superchargers with non-Teslas and they would have a distinct advantage over their bigger European rivals...alas, opportunity lost it seems.

It will be VERY interesting to see what the big energy companies finally decide to do in this space Hard to believe they will just sit on the sidelines and lets face it Tesla doesn't want to be the next Toyota / VW / GM....they want to be the next Exxon. He who controls the spice...

 

[SUN-day Driver]

Whoa that has not been my experience in San Diego -- and points north -- at all. The few times I have looked for non-Tesla chargers they have been few, slow, and often decrepit or broken. I have FUSC so I only look for them when Tesla won't work, but I have been pretty unimpressed. The non-Tesla chargers I have seen are like relic chargers from another EV planet.

Take Fasion Valley Mall as an example. There are 24 72kW Supercharger stations but there is almost always a line of Teslas wrapped around the parking lot waiting for the use of one. But also at that mall there are 2 150kW Electrify America and 1 50kW EVGo stations, and these are almost always not being used. You can see the open EVGo station from some of the Superchargers there that you just waited to get to. Even at 50 kW (instead of Tesla's 72) you may spend less time to get the same charge when you factor in waiting in line for the Tesla chargers.

I'm not a big road tripper, I would fly between San Diego and Seattle, but for drives such as between San Diego and Los Angeles that I do there are more available non-Tesla DCFC on my route than there are immediately available Superchargers. So for me Tesla does not hold a charging advantage over other cars like the i-Pace unless you are able to get FUSC with your Tesla. I've owned both.

 

[lotusland]

OK but just to be clear, in your example below, there are eight times as many Tesla chargers as there are "others". So the key word is really "available" rather than "more". I guess for right now that works.

Take Fasion Valley Mall as an example. There are 24 72kW Supercharger stations but there is almost always a line of Teslas wrapped around the parking lot waiting for the use of one. But also at that mall there are 2 150kW Electrify America and 1 50kW EVGo stations, and these are almost always not being used. You can see the open EVGo station from some of the Superchargers there that you just waited to get to. Even at 50 kW (instead of Tesla's 72) you may spend less time to get the same charge when you factor in waiting in line for the Tesla chargers.

I'm not a big road tripper, I would fly between San Diego and Seattle, but for drives such as between San Diego and Los Angeles that I do there are more available non-Tesla DCFC on my route than there are immediately available Superchargers. So for me Tesla does not hold a charging advantage over other cars like the i-Pace unless you are able to get FUSC with your Tesla. I've owned both.

 

[MXLRplus]

OK but just to be clear, in your example below, there are eight times as many Tesla chargers as there are "others". So the key word is really "available" rather than "more". I guess for right now that works.

Without actually buying a CCS car, you can check the status of EV charging on this site:
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations
The score is now 961 Tesla sites to 3249 CCS sites
The number of stalls is 9231 Tesla to 6220 CCS.

Soon CCS stalls will outnumber Tesla stalls. This is a far cry from what things were like in 2016.

If you take the I-15 from SoCal to Salt Lake City, you will see what has changed. You are far more likely to wait for your Tesla to charge at >50kW than your eTron, Taycan, or I-Pace. You are far more likely have full amenities at the DCFC site if you are in a CCS car. Because you have far more choices.

Your best bet is to buy the $450 CHAdeMO adapter for your Tesla since all EA and many CCS sites have a CHAdeMO stall. Just so you have more choices where to stop at.

I have free supercharging. $10 worth of free electricity is not going to make me sit and wait with nothing to do. Yes, I have EA, ChargePoint, EVgo, EVconnect accounts, it's fairly painless to pay for juice now.

 

[cusetownusa]

Without actually buying a CCS car, you can check the status of EV charging on this site:
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations
The score is now 961 Tesla sites to 3249 CCS sites
The number of stalls is 9231 Tesla to 6220 CCS.

Soon CCS stalls will outnumber Tesla stalls. This is a far cry from what things were like in 2016.

If you take the I-15 from SoCal to Salt Lake City, you will see what has changed. You are far more likely to wait for your Tesla to charge at >50kW than your eTron, Taycan, or I-Pace. You are far more likely have full amenities at the DCFC site if you are in a CCS car. Because you have far more choices.

Your best bet is to buy the $450 CHAdeMO adapter for your Tesla since all EA and many CCS sites have a CHAdeMO stall. Just so you have more choices where to stop at.

I have free supercharging. $10 worth of free electricity is not going to make me sit and wait with nothing to do. Yes, I have EA, ChargePoint, EVgo, EVconnect accounts, it's fairly painless to pay for juice now.

Stupid question...is the CHAdeMO the fast charging or slow charging option at the EA sites? I get them mixed up. FOr some reason I thought that the EA sites had 2 different types of cables.

ALso, does the Tesla navigation show where the CHAdeMO chargers are? Or do they just show the Tesla Superchargers?

 

[MXLRplus]

Stupid question...is the CHAdeMO the fast charging or slow charging option at the EA sites? I get them mixed up. FOr some reason I thought that the EA sites had 2 different types of cables.

ALso, does the Tesla navigation show where the CHAdeMO chargers are? Or do they just show the Tesla Superchargers?

I haven't used the CHAdeMO adapter yet, but I understand Tesla caps it at 50kW regardless of what the provider supplies. Most CHAdeMO is 50kW last I checked.

EA has a single CHAdeMO at all sites I've seen. I believe it was part of the settlement for the diesel suit. But EVgo and ChargePoint also have a CHAdeMO plug at many of their sites.

CCS is the fast one, up to 350kW on 800-1000vdc cars. Last time I charged an I-Pace (in 2019) it peaks at 110kW but really charges at an average of 70kW.

 

[cusetownusa]

I haven't used the CHAdeMO adapter yet, but I understand Tesla caps it at 50kW regardless of what the provider supplies. Most CHAdeMO is 50kW last I checked.

EA has a single CHAdeMO at all sites I've seen. I believe it was part of the settlement for the diesel suit. But EVgo and ChargePoint also have a CHAdeMO plug at many of their sites.

CCS is the fast one, up to 350kW on 800-1000vdc cars. Last time I charged an I-Pace (in 2019) it peaks at 110kW but really charges at an average of 70kW.

Does tesla make a CCS adapter?

When I get a Tesla I will probably get teh CHAdeMO adapter as you recommend...in a pinch is sounds like it could come in handy. Doesn't hurt to have more options.

 

[wws]

I haven't used the CHAdeMO adapter yet, but I understand Tesla caps it at 50kW regardless of what the provider supplies. Most CHAdeMO is 50kW last I checked.

More specifically the adapter is rated for 125 amps max. With a charging station capable of at least 125 amps, one can typically see charging in the low- to mid-40 kW range.

 

[wooter]

Tesla only offers a CCS adapter for the European market.

It’s glorious.

 

[cusetownusa]

Tesla only offers a CCS adapter for the European market.

It’s glorious.

I wonder if they could do the same in the US as well. If they did, that would give them an even bigger charging network advantage. Especially if they integrated the EA charging stations into the navigation.

In Europe, does Tesls integrate the EA charging stations into the nav like the tesla superchargers?

 

[wws]

I wonder if they could do the same in the US as well. If they did, that would give them an even bigger charging network advantage. Especially if they integrated the EA charging stations into the navigation.

There are a number of long running threads here on TMC discussing the topic. One poster from Korea claims he has made an adapter that works. Korean (and Japanese) Teslas also use North American style charge ports.

In Europe, does Tesls integrate the EA charging stations into the nav like the tesla superchargers?

There is no EA ("Electrify America") in Europe.

 

[cusetownusa]

There are a number of long running threads here on TMC discussing the topic. One poster from Korea claims he has made an adapter that works. Korean (and Japanese) Teslas also use North American style charge ports.



There is no EA ("Electrify America") in Europe.

LOL...of course not. Im an idiot. I am assuming there must be some sort of charging network that isn't owned by Tesla that the CCS adaptor is for...something similar to our EA network. Obviously wouldn't be called the EA network. Doh

 

[wooter]

In Europe, you have numerous networks being developed at the moment.

The largest looks to be IONITY, a joint-venture between a number of car makers. But there are others, like Allego, FastNed, Ecotricity, e-on and EnWb. All of these offer CCS2 charging plugs but most of these locations are only outfitted with 1, 2 or 4 hyperchargers.

 

[jbcarioca]

I think Jaguar actually made a genuine effort to make a proper EV. It’s on a bespoke platform and they went all-out on media to tell the world.

The problem is that when you’re competing with other automakers for commodity batteries and don’t have Tesla’s software and powertrain engineering expertise it’s very difficult to create something compelling where it matters most. The only ones close are the Koreans who have a home field advantage with batteries and have their heads down furiously iterating.

Tesla can do more with a kWh of storage than any other automaker and can pay less for that kWh than any other automaker. That’s the most important part of a competitive EV and nobody else is close yet. Battery day may move the goalposts again.

Don't forget the Chinese who are far ahead. Polestar, London Electric, plus Chery, BYD all the new names and many others. Those are mostly not visible to people in NA, which is why they bought Volvo then promptly build the EV's in China. BMW, DB and a few others have learned there. Some like GM with the Bolt, produce a Korean product and try to label it as US. Clearly LG and SK have learned to position themselves well and produce outside Korea.

I am confident that once BMW, Daimler Benz and VAG get past their mishaps they'll learn quickly. DB already makes pretty good trucks.
Then their is PSA, with Carlos Tavares starting with short range commercial vehicles and now with Peugeot e208. e2008 and Expert plus equivalents for Citroën, Opel and Vauxhall they're just beginning. Notably they're concentrating on their most popular categories.

Frankly I think the bulk of us imagine that nobody can succeed unless they match Tesla capabilities. We have blinders on, while several manufacturers are concentrating on making vehicles than non-enthusiasts will buy.

None of that will detract from Tesla. Tesla will just need to improve service, build cosmetically better vehicles and pay attention to customers. Only competition will make Tesla improve. It cannot come soon enough. The stuff of Jaguar, large MB and VAG products plus incompetently executed VW brand is distracting us. Meanwhile...

 

[BlindPass]

Don't forget the Chinese who are far ahead. Polestar, London Electric, plus Chery, BYD all the new names and many others. Those are mostly not visible to people in NA, which is why they bought Volvo then promptly build the EV's in China. BMW, DB and a few others have learned there. Some like GM with the Bolt, produce a Korean product and try to label it as US. Clearly LG and SK have learned to position themselves well and produce outside Korea.

I am confident that once BMW, Daimler Benz and VAG get past their mishaps they'll learn quickly. DB already makes pretty good trucks.
Then their is PSA, with Carlos Tavares starting with short range commercial vehicles and now with Peugeot e208. e2008 and Expert plus equivalents for Citroën, Opel and Vauxhall they're just beginning. Notably they're concentrating on their most popular categories.

Frankly I think the bulk of us imagine that nobody can succeed unless they match Tesla capabilities. We have blinders on, while several manufacturers are concentrating on making vehicles than non-enthusiasts will buy.

None of that will detract from Tesla. Tesla will just need to improve service, build cosmetically better vehicles and pay attention to customers. Only competition will make Tesla improve. It cannot come soon enough. The stuff of Jaguar, large MB and VAG products plus incompetently executed VW brand is distracting us. Meanwhile...

There’s no doubt that once the legacy automakers get some of the ICE fixed costs off the books and put more of their weight behind making EVs, they’ll improve. I personally find the VAG offerings to be a very good start, and anticipate thinking the same about Polestar (yes, made in China). Hopefully the market isn’t prohibitively battery constrained, as that will slow what should be explosive growth in the offerings.

 

[jbcarioca]

Back in the beginning of this thread I talked about my abortive attempt to buy an I-Pace in Brazil. Now I find that all of them sold here have been recalled for multiple problems, and in any event they still cannot do OTA updates here. If there is a single risk for legacy OEMs in BEVs I think it is software and firmware integration. Allegedly that is the single problem for the ID3.

From all the early reports it seems the Polestar 2 and the Taycan have no early problems, apparently unlike the MB and Audi offerings. If Tesla has not arrived in early 2021 I'll almost certainly buy either a Peugeot e-2008 or the Polestar 2. I lean towards the e-2008 primarily because of local support quality. I suppose my past pleasant experience with five different PSA products, two here in Rio, does influence me.