M3 Refresh - Are Indicator buttons really poor design?

[cwerdna]

There do seem to be a lot of Americans who think it's just fine, and I don't really believe that it would be a big issue on roundabouts (they do have plenty of them in the US anyway, see Roundabouts Database Map).

As an American, I will say we have very few roundabouts in the US. I live in the SF Bay Area and have only resided in the West Coast (California and Washington state) but have traveled to numerous US states, driving in/thru some of them.

I think I encountered some in Sacramento, CA and recall some in the Seattle area (I lived in that area for about 9 years).

I'm simply not accustomed to them and find them awkward if I stumble across one (almost never), esp. if I'm in a totally unfamiliar area and trying to follow directions from the nav app I have up (I have no Tesla) which would likely be either Apple Maps or Waze via CarPlay. I've had a driver's license for ~30 years now.

Looks like from that map, my city of almost 1 million people has maybe 7 traffic circles. I see one in an adjacent city that's in a shopping mall. That one I can remember but it's in a parking lot and thus people would be driving slowly.

Roundabouts or not, +1 from me in it feeling like it's a bad idea to get rid of the stalks. I've never driven a car w/o a turn signal stalk. Shifter could be in many different places. Wiper controls on older cars American cars tended to vary (e.g. control on the left side of dash or crammed into turn signal (left) stalk). I'm most used to the Japanese car style in the US which is a wiper stalk on the right side.

There are MANY parts of California I've not been to and it seems CA's land area is about 163K square miles vs. the UK's 94K square miles. I've drive as far south as San Diego and as far north as thru CA's northern border into Oregon.

 

[robbieduncan]

Whereas here in the UK we have this (perhaps an extreme counter example). I think there are 19 on this picture alone. Perhaps even more!

 

[Mrklaw]

Perhaps the level S3XY buttons people can come up with some contextual solution? Say you attach two buttons to the back of the wheel so they are easy to trigger. When the wheel is less than say 100° rotated the left button does left, the right does right. After enough rotation the swap

I tweeted them - they’re looking at a stalk solution that can be retrofit

 

[KennethS]

I tweeted them - they’re looking at a stalk solution that can be retrofit

I am a fan of the S3XY buttons and have the new Knob on order for our Y. My concern with the stalk retrofit, if it is in line with photos I have seen, is (i) it doesn't appear an easy DIY job, and (ii) more concerning is what the insurance companies would make of it, given their almost obsessive dislike of any modifications.

I wish Tesla had not removed the indicator stalk.

 

[GRiLLA]

you can easily test it yourself by buying S3XY buttons. They work fine to make simpler turns such as junctions etc like most American roads.
Roundabouts work mostly fine if you do NOT indicate upon entering one and just right before exiting. However this is not the legal code. Some bigger roundabouts where you actually enter the roundabout at a left angled curve, buttons are complete nonsense and dangerous.

Again, I'm not sure I'm able to picture that, and those S3XY buttons are hardly very ergonomic if you've stuck them to your wheel?

I indicate before entering the roundabout as per HC, and if it's not a mini roundabout I'll indicate LEFT to leave the roundabout. On larger roundabouts my memory is I'm not turning sufficiently to need to reposition my hands on the wheel, I'm not 100% on that and will try and remember in future. On mini roundabouts where the turn may well be tighter it's not very common to indicate left to leave, generally driving instructors tell you that you don't need to as your intentions are clear from the initial indicating (and it's ambiguous in the HC).

The US is a big place, there are part that have lots of roundabouts, the city of Carmel is has more roundabouts than Milton Keynes and is very proud of them Roundabouts | City of Carmel.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I think there are 19 on this picture alone. Perhaps even more!

Fishermead alone has that many, I counted around 50 in total !!

As an American, I will say we have very few roundabouts in the US

Nah, you're saying that as a Californian California only ranks 17th in USA (per mile-of-road, 5th for Qty)
Florida has twice as many and quite a lot less road than California

But you lot pale into insignificance compared to our UK town of Milton Keynes ...

I do wonder if roundabouts are Eco, all that slow down and stop-start and, in Milton Keynes, where often you can press on IME, all that extra wear on the nearside wheel as the car leans over precariously Might make up for it on keeping the traffic moving, and thus less impact on GDP

 

[pdk42]

I am a fan of the S3XY buttons and have the new Knob on order for our Y. My concern with the stalk retrofit, if it is in line with photos I have seen, is (i) it doesn't appear an easy DIY job, and (ii) more concerning is what the insurance companies would make of it, given their almost obsessive dislike of any modifications.

I wish Tesla had not removed the indicator stalk.

I fitted a TopFit instrument cluster. The display itself is attached to a replacement cover for the shroud on the steering column. It's a VERY easy job to swap the original for the one on the TopFit display. Unless the design is radically different on Highland (which would surprise me since it's pretty much the same approach as any other car), installing some 3rd party add-on stalks should be just as easy. The hardest part of the TopFit install is plugging in the Y-splitter on the car's computer since access requires the agility of a contortionist. I presume that any S3XY stalk retrofit would splice into the same place as the current buttons and that looks pretty simple by comparison.

I can't imagine any insurance company having any traction at all complaining about the install of an after market part like this.

Here's a photo of the TopFit display showing the replacement top shroud. Now imagine that without the display but with stalks sticking out the sides!

 

[Medved_77]

The VW Golf GTI concept from 2020 appeared to also ditch the stalks. Admittedly was a concept but suggests the VW designers were considering it:

Design of the new Golf GTI (Golf GTI - The vehicle is a near-production concept car.)

Statements

www.volkswagen-newsroom.com

And a VW patent exists for buttons to be placed within the rim of the steering wheel according to carbuzz:

VW Wants To Get Rid Of Turn Signal Stalks

New patents reveal that turn signals and a bunch of other regularly-used features will be relocated to the steering wheel rim.

carbuzz.com

 

[Mrklaw]

can someone tell me why? are these expensive to buy in bulk? Hard to maintain? i’ve never had a failure of one in 25 years of driving. Surely they don’t add much wiring complexity as they could splice into the steering wheel which still needs various buttons etc.

all seems unnecessarily ideological - especially when as pointed out they’re throwing increasingly large screens all over the inside of the car and in the case of highland a rear screen I’ll never use and even more speakers which individually probably cost more than both stalks

 

[GRiLLA]

can someone tell me why? are these expensive to buy in bulk? Hard to maintain? i’ve never had a failure of one in 25 years of driving. Surely they don’t add much wiring complexity as they could splice into the steering wheel which still needs various buttons etc.

all seems unnecessarily ideological - especially when as pointed out they’re throwing increasingly large screens all over the inside of the car and in the case of highland a rear screen I’ll never use and even more speakers which individually probably cost more than both stalks

Hard to know, but my guess would be it's about assembly speed. You've got to attach the wheel and plug in it's harness, connecting the stalks is an extra step you can completely eliminate.

 

[robbieduncan]

So I’ve just come back from driving a little in our Model Y. Being as this is the UK I had to go round a few roundabouts. I paid particular attention to where my hands were when I needed to indicate. On entry if I needed to indicate I’d be indicating before I entered the roundabout so my hands were just above the spokes and I could have easily used buttons on the wheel. On exit as I move my hands rather than feeding the wheel I had to take a hand off the wheel to use the stalk. Had I had buttons on the wheel I could have pushed them without moving my hands. So for me it seems wheel buttons might actually be better!

 

[Jason71]

Fishermead alone has that many, I counted around 50 in total !!



Nah, you're saying that as a Californian California only ranks 17th in USA (per mile-of-road, 5th for Qty)
Florida has twice as many and quite a lot less road than California

But you lot pale into insignificance compared to our UK town of Milton Keynes ...

I do wonder if roundabouts are Eco, all that slow down and stop-start and, in Milton Keynes, where often you can press on IME, all that extra wear on the nearside wheel as the car leans over precariously Might make up for it on keeping the traffic moving, and thus less impact on GDP

Comparing roundabouts to US 4 way stops test show they are safer and the throughput is higher though estimates of by how much vary
as for eco I would have thought so since I think you are less likely to have to stop at a roundabout and braking to rest and accelerating from rest are pretty non eco.

i imagine the above changes to a degree depending on whether you are comparing junctions with and without traffic lights.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I think you are less likely to have to stop at a roundabout

I think that once traffic builds everyone stops at the roundabouts, but the time before "your turn" is short, so efficient for overall traffic throughput.

Whereas other traffic flow methods allow the traffic, that has priority, to flow.

No idea how the two compare in terms of fuel usage though.

I've also pondered (I worry about myself at times!) whether all highway junctions should be above, or below, the highway.

If above then the up-ramp would assist with slowing down, and the down ramp with speeding up - might be particularly beneficial to HGV so they are up to speed before getting to the merge-point. Well ... Tesla Semi solves that too of course .. actually, thinking about it, maybe its moot with EV Regen anyway ...

 

[LiamPope]

Hard to know, but my guess would be it's about assembly speed. You've got to attach the wheel and plug in it's harness, connecting the stalks is an extra step you can completely eliminate.

And all the extra speakers just install themselves, I guess? I'd rather have the stalks, thanks. Since when did we need 17 speakers anyway??! Better quality speakers are better than just throwing more in. I'm surprised someone like Tesla isn't moving the other way - full range coax units in fewer locations rather than individual components everywhere - less assembly time. Maybe they are doing that already and just counting each driver of a coax unit as a separate speaker for the marketing bs - number of speakers sells like number of MP on a camera I guess.

 

[phil4]

I've had two cars in the past that didn't have stalks of any sort... indicator was a toggle switch on the dash. Indeed my motorbike has a thumb left/right, press to cancel, and I still have and ride that... so 3 vehicles.

I got used to it very quickly, and that was without auto cancel of any sort either. While it doesn't seem the best way to me, I've got used to it twice before and will get used to it again I'm sure.

 

[Mrklaw]

I've had two cars in the past that didn't have stalks of any sort... indicator was a toggle switch on the dash. Indeed my motorbike has a thumb left/right, press to cancel, and I still have and ride that... so 3 vehicles.

I got used to it very quickly, and that was without auto cancel of any sort either. While it doesn't seem the best way to me, I've got used to it twice before and will get used to it again I'm sure.

your entire steering wheel on a motorbike is a stalk
and I imagine it sits under or near your thumb and doesn't move position as you steer because you don't feed the handlebars through your hands, they're in fixed positions?

 

[RichardL]

On my MS with the yoke and indicator buttons I found it no problem. Especially with the yoke you tend to keep your hands at 9 and 3 even when making 90 degree turns - and hence the buttons are always right under your thumb.

It would only be an issue if you ‘shuffle the wheel between hands’ or needed to make a much greater than 90 degree while selecting the indicator.

So while I still wonder if the cost saving warrants the change, from experience it’s more of an adjustment than unusable.
(And I am originally English so I know a thing or two about roundabouts)
HTH

 

[phil4]

your entire steering wheel on a motorbike is a stalk
and I imagine it sits under or near your thumb and doesn't move position as you steer because you don't feed the handlebars through your hands, they're in fixed positions?

Indeed, but that doesn't apply so much to the two cars, here letting go of the steering wheel and finding the switch was required.

 

[mtndrew1]

I’ve got a few hundred miles on this S loaner and Christ almighty are the yoke/indicators/gearshift ever absurd.

I’m “used” to them now but they solve no problems at all. Primary controls should not frikkin move while driving and one should be able to grab a handful of steering input during a blind intersection check while not actively thinking about whether or not you’ll end up with a fistful of air.

It’s totally unreal. I wouldn’t ever consider a vehicle with this interface regardless of the manufacturer. I’m very glad I didn’t end up with one of these cars by waiting for a revision.

 

[ChrisInTheCar]

Granted it's not the M3 but it is Top Gears take on the S with the indicator buttons on the wheel...

Tesla Model S Plaid review: the best electric powertrain in the world Reviews 2023 | Top Gear

Wait, haven’t you driven this already? We have, although the Tesla Model S Plaid that Tom Ford drove at Paul Ricard earlier this year was a Track Package version, kitted out with £16k’s worth of carbon-ceramic brakes, lightweight, forged aluminium wheels and Goodyear Supercar 3R tyres. This one...

www.topgear.com

(Spoiler: they think don't think it works well)