Major Phantom Braking Issues

[sandman1330]

But it seems you re disappointed when safety has become the priority

But it isn't. I am yet to be convinced that TACC is safer. I am certain it is less comfortable / useable than radar enabled adaptive cruise or even basic cruise. My old VW had radar controlled adaptive cruise, and automatic emergency braking. It did everything TACC says it should do safety wise, but without all the false alarms. It just worked. And if it ever didn't work, I could turn off the adaptive portion and, you know, pay attention to where I'm going. If people aren't paying attention to where they're going, that's not Tesla's problem to solve. That's an individual and law enforcement problem.

One day maybe TACC will be safer. But right now it's not. The driver is still responsible. A day will (may?) come when the driver can hand over control to the car, and the car will drive safer than a human. That is definitely not the case right now. To clarify my point yet again, when FSD / Autopilot is enabled, I'm all for it taking the cautious route, as the intent is to (eventually) get to the point where the driver does not need to pay attention anymore. TACC alone is not ever intended to allow the driver to stop paying attention, so I should have more control over it's behaviour.

I mean, we can argue in circles all day if we want to, and I don't think you and I are going to ever see eye to eye on this one. But to distill it down to something very tangible: Is it too much to ask for my $130K "luxury" Model S to have working cruise control? You seem to think yes, it is too much to ask. I disagree.

 

[enemji]

I mean, we can argue in circles all day if we want to, and I don't think you and I are going to ever see eye to eye on this one. But to distill it down to something very tangible: Is it too much to ask for my $130K "luxury" Model S to have working cruise control? You seem to think yes, it is too much to ask. I disagree.

I don’t disagree with your premise. However the approach that Tesla has taken does not allow for what you are asking for. Now that might make them lose you as a customer but that is the gamble they have taken

 

[sandman1330]

I don’t disagree with your premise. However the approach that Tesla has taken does not allow for what you are asking for. Now that might make them lose you as a customer but that is the gamble they have taken

Yep, that's fair. So I guess from Tesla's perspective, it's too much to ask

They do need to start being careful though. It's OT for this thread, but their massive advantage in technology and charging infrastructure is quickly dwindling. In 5 more years, I think public charging will be on par or close to Tesla's supercharging network (not to mention they're opening that up anyway). Other automakers are already matching Tesla's quality, range and performance. Competition is coming, and they will need to start keeping their people happy.

Rant over - have yourself a great day. Thanks for the stimulating debate!

 

[TechSavySD]

I discovered something new today.

TACC will slam on the brakes if you are approaching a turn in the nav system but don't slow down to take that turn. And it waits till the last minute, so it's a HARD slam on the brakes, right down to 0.

This morning, I forgot something and had to turn around. I left work set in the nav system as it was only 5mins back to the house, and activated just TACC. The car then proceeded to slam on the brakes at every intersection (hard, from 110km/h right down to 0, I let it do it once for experimental purposes since there was no-one behind me).

After a couple times, I realized it was doing it where the nav system was trying to re-route me to turn around back towards work.

This was just TACC - no autosteer, no FSDb, nothing. Just TACC. I think it's new behaviour in FSDb V11, as I never saw this happen before.

I genuinely believe the issues with TACC are rooted in FSD. Their mentality is that TACC is a subset of FSD, where I personally believe it should be a separate entity. TACC needs to remain just a driver assist (yes I know FSD is just a driver assist now, but we all know Tesla wants it to be more). As it stands right now we have nothing between completely driving ourselves and FSD. TACC is trying to be too smart. Just let cruise control be cruise control.

This is good information! Have you since duplicated the behavior in a new driving session and sent a bug report? Are you currently using 2023.12 S/W? You said "no FSDb" engaged - does that mean you have never purchased FSD or participated or installed FSDb S/W?

 

[DrChaos]

I discovered something new today.

TACC will slam on the brakes if you are approaching a turn in the nav system but don't slow down to take that turn. And it waits till the last minute, so it's a HARD slam on the brakes, right down to 0.

This morning, I forgot something and had to turn around. I left work set in the nav system as it was only 5mins back to the house, and activated just TACC. The car then proceeded to slam on the brakes at every intersection (hard, from 110km/h right down to 0, I let it do it once for experimental purposes since there was no-one behind me).

After a couple times, I realized it was doing it where the nav system was trying to re-route me to turn around back towards work.

This was just TACC - no autosteer, no FSDb, nothing. Just TACC. I think it's new behaviour in FSDb V11, as I never saw this happen before.

I genuinely believe the issues with TACC are rooted in FSD. Their mentality is that TACC is a subset of FSD, where I personally believe it should be a separate entity. TACC needs to remain just a driver assist (yes I know FSD is just a driver assist now, but we all know Tesla wants it to be more). As it stands right now we have nothing between completely driving ourselves and FSD. TACC is trying to be too smart. Just let cruise control be cruise control.

Were you 100% sure NoA is was 'off'? It still sounds like a bug, but it seems to be acting as if you had "NoA" on, but autosteer was off. So it thought it was trying to NoA, but autosteer was off so only the speed control did its part.

FSDb with no navigation destination set might be the better choice for "go straight unless told otherwise".

 

[TechSavySD]

So I am scheduled to take delivery of my first Tesla 2023 M3LR this week. I have reviewed every YouTube video and Phantom Braking topic on this forum in past few days. There seem to be no work arounds other than just not using AP. I suppose I have let all the other features of Tesla dazzle me and not paid attention to this critical safety issue of PB until late in the game. I just went back to the showroom and test drove another Model 3 on Sunday because I had not previously tried out AutoPilot/TACC on a highway. I did not experience a PB event, but I did not expect to, due to the limited miles driven. I do have a better understanding of how AutoPilot/TACC works. I also noticed, by habit, that when I am driving under cruise control, I always move my foot away from the accelerator pedal.

IMHO, being a good driver most importantly requires being "predictable". I once road-raced motorcycles with CMRA club. My first year I remember someone telling me that I was not predictable entering turns - of course, there are no turn signals, brake lights, or anything to signal intentions when racing. So I understand, very well, what being predictable means. Although, I haven't seen any posts about someone being rear-ended due to a PB event (aside from the San Fran tunnel pile-up), the accident reports which Tesla and NHTSC have in their possession are not public ... yet. They may become public after the recent data breach in Germany. The bottom line, PB is not predictable behavior! If I were to be rear-ended, besides possible injury, repairs, loss of use of car, battery fires, insurance claims, etc there still looms the possibility of being sued. Yes, drivers following behind are responsible to stop and control their vehicle and are by default considered liable in a rear-end accident, but that does not necessarily mean you won't be sued.

So I am at the point where I must decide whether or not to take delivery of my M3LR and forfeit my deposit. If I have to forgo using AutoPilot/TACC altogether in most situations, and now as Sandman1330 points out when using Navigation (w/o FSDb), and there is not any "dumb" cruise control alternative, then what is the point? I need to buy a different car. Tesla is the only EV I am currently interested, because I currently do not have option to install a 240V wall charger in my detached garage; I will be limited to a mobile charger, and use of Tesla's extensive, but exclusive Supercharging network. I currently do not have a running car, and can not put off buying a new car any longer. So that leaves a choice between an ICE or Hybrid vehicle.

I do not trust Musk even the slightest. Never have. Delivering a FSD car this year is a pipe dream. Disputes between an owner and Tesla are required to go to Arbitration per the electronic sales agreement, which avoids the publicity of a jury trial of these type of problems. Has Tesla even acknowledged the Phantom Braking issue or announced that they are working on a fix as a top priority? Announced plans for HW4 include capability to attach a new, High Definition Radar (Phoenix) sensor eventually. It is not expected that existing cars would ever be retro-fitted with HW4. I understand that 2023 M3LRs now coming out of re-started production still have HW3 (see Model 3 - LR AWD Waiting Room) . If I had hope that the PB issue in response to non-existent objects, which has persisted for 4+yrs, would be resolved or could be resolved in the near term with "vision only" technology, then I would proceed forward with the purchase of this vehicle.

I do not believe Musk will ever add a Traffic Aware Disable feature into Autopilot configuration because:

1. it will show admission that there is a problem with basic Autopilot TACC and that PB is real, which will result in more publicity of the problem, "wake up" potential Tesla buyers, and possibly cause his stock and net worth to plummet again
2. it would likely be viewed as a safety issue by Tesla - they could argue that a driver may cause an accident because they fail to use their brakes to cancel "dumb" cruise control, thinking that TACC is active and will do it for them. There is a brightly colored rainbow road displayed to alert when full AP is in effect; there would have to be something equally obvious to flag an active "dumb" cruise control mode.

These are my opinions that bear on my decision still to be made about accepting delivery of a new M3LR. Am I being too pessimistic? Some say PB is not a big deal, but other's have had reported incidents that scared the *sugar* out of them.

Should I put any stock in this posted video about PB being fixed in FSDb V11, and with the possibility it could be rolled out to basic AP?

Well, as a footnote, I did find these warnings in the M3 Owner's Manual under TACC. I guess these Disclaimers protect Tesla legally from accidents caused by PB:

Warning​

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally cause Model 3 to brake when not required or when you are not expecting it. This can be caused by closely following a vehicle ahead, detecting vehicles or objects in adjacent lanes (especially on curves), etc."​

Warning​

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may not detect all objects and, especially when cruising over 50 mph (80 km/h), may not brake/decelerate when a vehicle or object is only partially in the driving lane or when a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary or slow-moving vehicle or object is in front of you. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death. In addition, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist, or are not in your lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately."​

 

[TechSavySD]

Should I put any stock in this posted video about PB being fixed in FSDb V11, and with the possibility it could be rolled out to basic AP?

The video:

 

[sleepydoc]

Yep, that's fair. So I guess from Tesla's perspective, it's too much to ask

They do need to start being careful though. It's OT for this thread, but their massive advantage in technology and charging infrastructure is quickly dwindling. In 5 more years, I think public charging will be on par or close to Tesla's supercharging network (not to mention they're opening that up anyway). Other automakers are already matching Tesla's quality, range and performance. Competition is coming, and they will need to start keeping their people happy.

Rant over - have yourself a great day. Thanks for the stimulating debate!

I’ve noticed the same behavior - if you have a route, programmed into the map and are using cruise control, but not auto pilot, the car will slow down as it approaches an expected turn.

 

[sandman1330]

Yup, TACC only. I do have FSDb but it was 100% not engaged. It didn’t try to take the turn, it just slammed on the brakes at the turn point.

 

[TechSavySD]

Were you 100% sure NoA is was 'off'? It still sounds like a bug, but it seems to be acting as if you had "NoA" on, but autosteer was off. So it thought it was trying to NoA, but autosteer was off so only the speed control did its part.

FSDb with no navigation destination set might be the better choice for "go straight unless told otherwise".

Is Navigate On Autopilot a basic AP feature or only purchased Enhanced AP feature?

 

[TechSavySD]

Yup, TACC only. I do have FSDb but it was 100% not engaged. It didn’t try to take the turn, it just slammed on the brakes at the turn point.

I'm not clear if FSDb is a separate supplemental software install or is part of a 2023.x upload. But is it possible that certain software processes are shared between FSDb code and basic TACC regardless whether FSDb is disabled or feature activated through purchase?

You probably would have said, but I will assume your turn signal wasn't on either approaching the intersection.

 

[TechSavySD]

Yup, TACC only. I do have FSDb but it was 100% not engaged. It didn’t try to take the turn, it just slammed on the brakes at the turn point.

Slowing down or tapping the breaks I could deal with. Supposedly it illuminates brake lights. Slamming the breaks is another thing. Excess, sudden deceleration just for missing a turn is the wrong response.

 

[Supcom]

I'm not clear if FSDb is a separate supplemental software install or is part of a 2023.x upload. But is it possible that certain software processes are shared between FSDb code and basic TACC regardless whether FSDb is disabled or feature activated through purchase?

You probably would have said, but I will assume your turn signal wasn't on either approaching the intersection.

When you get FSDb, your car will download a new software set. It's not like getting EAP or basic FSD where the car simply enables software features that are already in the car. As of now, 2023.12.10 and 2023.7.10 are the latest software versions with FSDb. TACC, AP and NOA do not use FSDb software, though there may be some things common between them with regard to perception. However, it certainly appears that TACC, AP and NOA are well behind FSDb capabilities and more likely to experience PB.

Hopefully, Tesla will be replacing the old TACC, AP and NOA with feature-limited FSDb software soon.

 

[DrChaos]

Is Navigate On Autopilot a basic AP feature or only purchased Enhanced AP feature?

purchased Enhanced AP feature.

 

[derotam]

So I am scheduled to take delivery of my first Tesla 2023 M3LR this week. I have reviewed every YouTube video and Phantom Braking topic on this forum in past few days. There seem to be no work arounds other than just not using AP. I suppose I have let all the other features of Tesla dazzle me and not paid attention to this critical safety issue of PB until late in the game. I just went back to the showroom and test drove another Model 3 on Sunday because I had not previously tried out AutoPilot/TACC on a highway. I did not experience a PB event, but I did not expect to, due to the limited miles driven. I do have a better understanding of how AutoPilot/TACC works. I also noticed, by habit, that when I am driving under cruise control, I always move my foot away from the accelerator pedal.

IMHO, being a good driver most importantly requires being "predictable". I once road-raced motorcycles with CMRA club. My first year I remember someone telling me that I was not predictable entering turns - of course, there are no turn signals, brake lights, or anything to signal intentions when racing. So I understand, very well, what being predictable means. Although, I haven't seen any posts about someone being rear-ended due to a PB event (aside from the San Fran tunnel pile-up), the accident reports which Tesla and NHTSC have in their possession are not public ... yet. They may become public after the recent data breach in Germany. The bottom line, PB is not predictable behavior! If I were to be rear-ended, besides possible injury, repairs, loss of use of car, battery fires, insurance claims, etc there still looms the possibility of being sued. Yes, drivers following behind are responsible to stop and control their vehicle and are by default considered liable in a rear-end accident, but that does not necessarily mean you won't be sued.

So I am at the point where I must decide whether or not to take delivery of my M3LR and forfeit my deposit. If I have to forgo using AutoPilot/TACC altogether in most situations, and now as Sandman1330 points out when using Navigation (w/o FSDb), and there is not any "dumb" cruise control alternative, then what is the point? I need to buy a different car. Tesla is the only EV I am currently interested, because I currently do not have option to install a 240V wall charger in my detached garage; I will be limited to a mobile charger, and use of Tesla's extensive, but exclusive Supercharging network. I currently do not have a running car, and can not put off buying a new car any longer. So that leaves a choice between an ICE or Hybrid vehicle.

I do not trust Musk even the slightest. Never have. Delivering a FSD car this year is a pipe dream. Disputes between an owner and Tesla are required to go to Arbitration per the electronic sales agreement, which avoids the publicity of a jury trial of these type of problems. Has Tesla even acknowledged the Phantom Braking issue or announced that they are working on a fix as a top priority? Announced plans for HW4 include capability to attach a new, High Definition Radar (Phoenix) sensor eventually. It is not expected that existing cars would ever be retro-fitted with HW4. I understand that 2023 M3LRs now coming out of re-started production still have HW3 (see Model 3 - LR AWD Waiting Room) . If I had hope that the PB issue in response to non-existent objects, which has persisted for 4+yrs, would be resolved or could be resolved in the near term with "vision only" technology, then I would proceed forward with the purchase of this vehicle.

I do not believe Musk will ever add a Traffic Aware Disable feature into Autopilot configuration because:

1. it will show admission that there is a problem with basic Autopilot TACC and that PB is real, which will result in more publicity of the problem, "wake up" potential Tesla buyers, and possibly cause his stock and net worth to plummet again
2. it would likely be viewed as a safety issue by Tesla - they could argue that a driver may cause an accident because they fail to use their brakes to cancel "dumb" cruise control, thinking that TACC is active and will do it for them. There is a brightly colored rainbow road displayed to alert when full AP is in effect; there would have to be something equally obvious to flag an active "dumb" cruise control mode.

These are my opinions that bear on my decision still to be made about accepting delivery of a new M3LR. Am I being too pessimistic? Some say PB is not a big deal, but other's have had reported incidents that scared the *sugar* out of them.

Should I put any stock in this posted video about PB being fixed in FSDb V11, and with the possibility it could be rolled out to basic AP?

Well, as a footnote, I did find these warnings in the M3 Owner's Manual under TACC. I guess these Disclaimers protect Tesla legally from accidents caused by PB:

Warning​

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally cause Model 3 to brake when not required or when you are not expecting it. This can be caused by closely following a vehicle ahead, detecting vehicles or objects in adjacent lanes (especially on curves), etc."​

Warning​

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may not detect all objects and, especially when cruising over 50 mph (80 km/h), may not brake/decelerate when a vehicle or object is only partially in the driving lane or when a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary or slow-moving vehicle or object is in front of you. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death. In addition, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist, or are not in your lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately."​

I see two outcomes if you get the car. 1. You will adapt and figure out how to drive the car and deal with any issues(PB) that come up, or 2. You will get the car and overly complain about every little quirk.

Now, I am not trying to say that PB is something that doesn't need to be fixed, or that there are some locations/scenarios where PB is more of an issue, I'm just saying that for the most part it can be dealt with. I personally keep my right foot over the accelerator for multiple reasons....any misc PB events, and the fact that I disengage AP as needed with the stalk and would need to generally be on the accelerator to avoid too much regenerative braking.

99% of driving in an ICE car is foot pressing the accelerator and the operator having to switch to the brake in an emergency...doesn't need to be different in the Tesla. Actually, the Tesla gives you a head start in an emergency because the regenerative braking kicks in as you go to switch to the brake in an emergency.

Anyway...I am sure you will love the car if you get it, or you will despise it. Based on your comments it seems like it might end up being the latter.

About your charging capabilities at home...there is nothing wrong with the Mobile connector....now your voltage/current capacity in the detached garage could be an issue... Based on your comments can I assume you are renting? Can you not do any electrical upgrades to your garage?

 

[SalisburySam]

So I am scheduled to take delivery of my first Tesla 2023 M3LR this week. I have reviewed every YouTube video and Phantom Braking topic on this forum in past few days. There seem to be no work arounds other than just not using AP.

Almost correct. At least in my M3LR RWD it is the TACC at fault, not AutoPilot. And yeah, no other workarounds.

…when I am driving under cruise control, I always move my foot away from the accelerator pedal.

I always did as well, and still do in my non-Tesla vehicles. In the Tesla, my foot hovers over the go pedal to minimize passenger/pet effects of a phantom braking event whenever it may occur. Hate it. Worst part of my car.

…PB is not predictable behavior!

It is in some early cases, e.g., overhead bypasses, railroad bridges and the like. Also affected by speed limits on close-by roads, vehicles approaching, and whatever else. Software iterations have eliminated some of the former more obvious causes, but PB has NOT gone away, at least not for me.

If I were to be rear-ended, besides possible injury, repairs, loss of use of car, battery fires, insurance claims, etc there still looms the possibility of being sued. Yes, drivers following behind are responsible to stop and control their vehicle and are by default considered liable in a rear-end accident, but that does not necessarily mean you won't be sued.

Also doesn’t mean they’ll win the suit, nor if they win that they’ll be awarded anything. But yes, I’d not want to go through that exercise.

So I am at the point where I must decide whether or not to take delivery of my M3LR and forfeit my deposit. If I have to forgo using AutoPilot/TACC altogether in most situations, and now as Sandman1330 points out when using Navigation (w/o FSDb), and there is not any "dumb" cruise control alternative, then what is the point? I need to buy a different car.

Correct, no dumb cruise, sadly. But no one knows the extent to which PB has invaded the fleet. It seems some of us experience it and have since we bought the car regardless of software version, and PB improves and degrades over and over from update to update. That’s my case. There are others who report no problem or at least not a big enough problem to be concerned. Seems to be the luck of the draw with your vehicle, something unknown though until you get it.

Tesla is the only EV I am currently interested, because I currently do not have option to install a 240V wall charger in my detached garage; I will be limited to a mobile charger…

Other EVs have mobile chargers as well and can charge from 120v and 240v outlets.

and use of Tesla's extensive, but exclusive Supercharging network.

Depending upon where you are and where you drive, other L3 CCS charging stations likely exist. They are currently (LOL) not up to Supercharger density nor reliability, but could work. Again, solely mobile charging also works for many.

I currently do not have a running car, and can not put off buying a new car any longer. So that leaves a choice between an ICE or Hybrid vehicle.

I do not trust Musk even the slightest. Never have. Delivering a FSD car this year is a pipe dream. Disputes between an owner and Tesla are required to go to Arbitration per the electronic sales agreement, which avoids the publicity of a jury trial of these type of problems. Has Tesla even acknowledged the Phantom Braking issue or announced that they are working on a fix as a top priority?

There was a burst of activity when TeslaVision disabled radar in cars that have it implying phantom braking was totally eliminated with the radar shut off. That, of course, was and is not the case. Phantom braking is brought to you in both cases, witness threads here on v2023.12.10 some of whom state PB has gotten worse than on previous versions.

Announced plans for HW4 include capability to attach a new, High Definition Radar (Phoenix) sensor eventually. It is not expected that existing cars would ever be retro-fitted with HW4. I understand that 2023 M3LRs now coming out of re-started production still have HW3 (see Model 3 - LR AWD Waiting Room) . If I had hope that the PB issue in response to non-existent objects, which has persisted for 4+yrs, would be resolved or could be resolved in the near term with "vision only" technology, then I would proceed forward with the purchase of this vehicle.

No need to be hopeful on this front…PB seems intractable for those of us who “enjoy” it with their cars. It would be emotions better spent to be hopeful yours in not one of the cars like mine and that you don’t have PB at all.

I do not believe Musk will ever add a Traffic Aware Disable feature into Autopilot configuration because:

1. it will show admission that there is a problem with basic Autopilot TACC and that PB is real, which will result in more publicity of the problem, "wake up" potential Tesla buyers, and possibly cause his stock and net worth to plummet again
2. it would likely be viewed as a safety issue by Tesla - they could argue that a driver may cause an accident because they fail to use their brakes to cancel "dumb" cruise control, thinking that TACC is active and will do it for them. There is a brightly colored rainbow road displayed to alert when full AP is in effect; there would have to be something equally obvious to flag an active "dumb" cruise control mode.

Maybe. So far Tesla/Musk has never put back any hardware removed or modified. Similarly they have MOSTLY not retrenched on software changes except for walking back some of the more egregious UI issues with early V11 software. Walking back is not moving forward and anathema to the prime directive. It’s also not fun.

These are my opinions that bear on my decision still to be made about accepting delivery of a new M3LR. Am I being too pessimistic? Some say PB is not a big deal, but other's have had reported incidents that scared the *sugar* out of them.

Yup, that sums it up. For MOST, it appears to not be a big deal or experienced at all. Then there’s those of us with the issue. It is always far worse for passengers and pets than the driver given their lack of any control over the situation. For the driver, it is a major annoyance.

Should I put any stock in this posted video about PB being fixed in FSDb V11, and with the possibility it could be rolled out to basic AP?

LOL, that’s a good one! Thanks for the chuckle.

Well, as a footnote, I did find these warnings in the M3 Owner's Manual under TACC. I guess these Disclaimers protect Tesla legally from accidents caused by PB:

Yeah, complete disclaimer. You’re on your own. Make your decision accordingly. I wistfully long for dumb cruise control. Also, my 2018 M3LR RWD is my first and last Tesla, mostly because of PB but also some dissatisfaction with TV. But that’s just me. Here’s hoping YMMV.

 

[KArnold]

Keep things in context as well.

I'm one of many who has very few (maybe 1/month) PB events > 5 MPH along with many others. I drive about 10k/year. We can only speculate as to why. And we don't know how many do/do not have this consistently. My honest guess it's a significant and expectedly vocal minority percent, maybe 20% have this often. And perhaps 10% who would call it unusable. But obviously just a swag based mostly on the comments here.

You in San Diego? Maybe others in that geographic could share how much of a problem it is (or isn't) there. Here in the Midwest in my experience (and interstates everywhere) it's not a huge deal. But if I were in your shoes, the risk of significant PB would not be a major factor in a buy decision.

Just my subjective opinion obviously. Experiences differ widely on this one.

 

[Frank Langella]

The PB in Nevada is so bad that during the purchase process they should honestly be forced to have customers sign a waver saying they understand TACC will be largely unusable on highways in the state. My recent road trip I eventually just gave up and spent the rest of the trip either driving manually or finding someone going about the same speed as me and just following them on 6-7 distance where having them in front of me blocks Vision from seeing the mirages.

 

[Frank Langella]

So I am scheduled to take delivery of my first Tesla 2023 M3LR this week. I have reviewed every YouTube video and Phantom Braking topic on this forum in past few days. There seem to be no work arounds other than just not using AP. I suppose I have let all the other features of Tesla dazzle me and not paid attention to this critical safety issue of PB until late in the game. I just went back to the showroom and test drove another Model 3 on Sunday because I had not previously tried out AutoPilot/TACC on a highway. I did not experience a PB event, but I did not expect to, due to the limited miles driven. I do have a better understanding of how AutoPilot/TACC works. I also noticed, by habit, that when I am driving under cruise control, I always move my foot away from the accelerator pedal.

IMHO, being a good driver most importantly requires being "predictable". I once road-raced motorcycles with CMRA club. My first year I remember someone telling me that I was not predictable entering turns - of course, there are no turn signals, brake lights, or anything to signal intentions when racing. So I understand, very well, what being predictable means. Although, I haven't seen any posts about someone being rear-ended due to a PB event (aside from the San Fran tunnel pile-up), the accident reports which Tesla and NHTSC have in their possession are not public ... yet. They may become public after the recent data breach in Germany. The bottom line, PB is not predictable behavior! If I were to be rear-ended, besides possible injury, repairs, loss of use of car, battery fires, insurance claims, etc there still looms the possibility of being sued. Yes, drivers following behind are responsible to stop and control their vehicle and are by default considered liable in a rear-end accident, but that does not necessarily mean you won't be sued.

So I am at the point where I must decide whether or not to take delivery of my M3LR and forfeit my deposit. If I have to forgo using AutoPilot/TACC altogether in most situations, and now as Sandman1330 points out when using Navigation (w/o FSDb), and there is not any "dumb" cruise control alternative, then what is the point? I need to buy a different car. Tesla is the only EV I am currently interested, because I currently do not have option to install a 240V wall charger in my detached garage; I will be limited to a mobile charger, and use of Tesla's extensive, but exclusive Supercharging network. I currently do not have a running car, and can not put off buying a new car any longer. So that leaves a choice between an ICE or Hybrid vehicle.

I do not trust Musk even the slightest. Never have. Delivering a FSD car this year is a pipe dream. Disputes between an owner and Tesla are required to go to Arbitration per the electronic sales agreement, which avoids the publicity of a jury trial of these type of problems. Has Tesla even acknowledged the Phantom Braking issue or announced that they are working on a fix as a top priority? Announced plans for HW4 include capability to attach a new, High Definition Radar (Phoenix) sensor eventually. It is not expected that existing cars would ever be retro-fitted with HW4. I understand that 2023 M3LRs now coming out of re-started production still have HW3 (see Model 3 - LR AWD Waiting Room) . If I had hope that the PB issue in response to non-existent objects, which has persisted for 4+yrs, would be resolved or could be resolved in the near term with "vision only" technology, then I would proceed forward with the purchase of this vehicle.

I do not believe Musk will ever add a Traffic Aware Disable feature into Autopilot configuration because:

1. it will show admission that there is a problem with basic Autopilot TACC and that PB is real, which will result in more publicity of the problem, "wake up" potential Tesla buyers, and possibly cause his stock and net worth to plummet again
2. it would likely be viewed as a safety issue by Tesla - they could argue that a driver may cause an accident because they fail to use their brakes to cancel "dumb" cruise control, thinking that TACC is active and will do it for them. There is a brightly colored rainbow road displayed to alert when full AP is in effect; there would have to be something equally obvious to flag an active "dumb" cruise control mode.

These are my opinions that bear on my decision still to be made about accepting delivery of a new M3LR. Am I being too pessimistic? Some say PB is not a big deal, but other's have had reported incidents that scared the *sugar* out of them.

Should I put any stock in this posted video about PB being fixed in FSDb V11, and with the possibility it could be rolled out to basic AP?

Well, as a footnote, I did find these warnings in the M3 Owner's Manual under TACC. I guess these Disclaimers protect Tesla legally from accidents caused by PB:

Warning​

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally cause Model 3 to brake when not required or when you are not expecting it. This can be caused by closely following a vehicle ahead, detecting vehicles or objects in adjacent lanes (especially on curves), etc."​

Warning​

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may not detect all objects and, especially when cruising over 50 mph (80 km/h), may not brake/decelerate when a vehicle or object is only partially in the driving lane or when a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary or slow-moving vehicle or object is in front of you. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death. In addition, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist, or are not in your lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately."​

You will probably not have problems in and around SD.

If you drive to Phoenix or Vegas or similar, you will probably have problems.

 

[DrChaos]

Keep things in context as well.

I'm one of many who has very few (maybe 1/month) PB events > 5 MPH along with many others. I drive about 10k/year. We can only speculate as to why. And we don't know how many do/do not have this consistently. My honest guess it's a significant and expectedly vocal minority percent, maybe 20% have this often. And perhaps 10% who would call it unusable. But obviously just a swag based mostly on the comments here.

You in San Diego? Maybe others in that geographic could share how much of a problem it is (or isn't) there. Here in the Midwest in my experience (and interstates everywhere) it's not a huge deal. But if I were in your shoes, the risk of significant PB would not be a major factor in a buy decision.

Just my subjective opinion obviously. Experiences differ widely on this one.

I'm in San Diego. I think it will be fine.

On relatively crowded freeways (which everywhere in SoCal is, even at night) I get no major PB like scary slam on brakes AEB stops. I've never had one in a year. There are some ~10 mph slowdowns, and 90% of them is a speed limit problem, where it decides there is now a 55 mph zone because it saw a "55 mph for trailers" or a "55 mph work zone" sign with nobody working there, or because it just felt like it because something in its map said so.

I never worry about major PB, and use the right scroll wheel to readjust the speed back up when it dips. The NTHSA 'recall' on speed limits has unfortunately forced worse behavior surrounding these changes I suspect. The major PB's occur on long straight highways now with few or no cars, with dips in elevation and mirages, where the computer mistakenly hallucinates objects on the road. There's always too many cars in San Diego for that to happen.

The freeway performance of FSDb from 11.3.6 and 11.4.2 is good and better than the old stack for certain. (if you don't have FSDb then AP and EAP is old stack which was reasonable in SD but not perfect. Still no major PB with it; drive performance is better if you increase following distance to max). Some excessive lane changes though. I am now driving in 'chill' aggressiveness profile with FSDb and prefer that, and use the signal to manually change lanes proactively at times. With that, it's a satisfactory driver assist product on the freeways for me that honestly lowers stress, I use it 80-90% of the time. I prefer to take the on-ramps and merge manually and then when set in the middle lanes I turn on the assistance.

On side streets, it's trustable to chill out and follow FSDb but only when you've done the route before and you know where it tends to have problems so you take over at those locations. Otherwise, you have to pay significantly more attention the first time. As always it does better when there's a car in front of it to follow. If you have regular AP or EAP, then AP on the side streets isn't better than driving manually.

No, it's not Full Self Driving. If I were CEO I would call what's now the FSDb as Enhanced Autopilot Assist $6K (still sharp) and offer auto lane change from basic AP for $2k. That's more comparable to competition. And then say "FSD is a long term research goal" but not claim to be deployed on current hardware.

BTW, I reformatted the USB cam drive after a following after some suggestions I read. The FSD/AP seems to be slightly smoother. It may be placebo though. The connection seems obscure but apparently a very full drive means that there is more jitter and delays in the access time of the heavily used drive and in the compute kernel that causes delays so that the frame processing of the driver assist computer is hurt. At one point Elon said that excess variance in the frame processing rate hurts driving performance as much as or more than insufficient throughput, and that's something they're working on.