MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[Knightshade]

Is anyone actually paying the subscription fee for a product that doesn't exist yet?

Nope.

They're paying it for one that clearly does exist, and spells out during purchase the half dozen features that already exist you get for the purchase.

 

[qdeathstar]

If you believe their press releases, "every vendor" has been working on good EVs for 10+ years now too.

And yet Tesla still dominates the market with the vast majority of sales.

Hell Waymos been working on self-driving since 2009... with GOOGLE money behind it... and still has nothing a consumer can buy, and operates nothing except a tiny RT fleet in a tiny geofenced suburb in Arizona.





In an angled spot in a 1-way lot? That's absolutely untrue.


In a 90 degree 2-way lot it's true- but as mentioned you should be BACKING into those spots-thus pulling out forward which is vastly safer with much better visibility to cross traffic.

Notice the car parks itself by backing into those spots? That's the intended, correct, way to park in them.

I never noticed the car successfully parking into one of those spots lol

 

[qdeathstar]

Is anyone actually paying the subscription fee for a product that doesn't exist yet?

Navigate on autopilot is fairly useful...

 

[Knightshade]

I never noticed the car successfully parking into one of those spots lol

What, the 90 degree angled ones?

I've never not had it successfully park in one of those.

But it's painfully slow to do it since AFAIK they're still using antique code that relies on the ultrasonics.... (which is why it can only park between 2 cars, and won't work properly if they aren't there- many folks don't seem aware of that requirement which I suspect is part of the reason many think it doesn't work right) so pretty much the only time I use it is when a passenger asks to see it.

Ideally the vision-only code will eventually make its way to parking, and the speed and needs-bracketing-cars issues will be fixed.

Until then the rear cam, especially since they added the side views, is so good it's a lot faster to back into the spot yourself.

 

[bayareaever]

Is anyone actually paying the subscription fee for a product that doesn't exist yet?

Probably not many and maybe that’s why they released it now. If the take rate is low, they can just pull the subscription option after saying they ‘tried’, but interest was too low.

it’s clearly going to devalue their used cars with FSD and they’re already being threatened with a lawsuit over the upgrade issue. Much simpler to just stick with the lump sum purchase. For those that don't want it, don’t buy it!

 

[CapeOne]

When Tesla standard practice is to add FSD to a used Tesla that comes in when they put it in inventory (zero cost to them,10K extra profit when they sell it), they are adding 10K of negative depreciation artificially making the car look like it has an awesome resale value. This artificially pumps up the resale value on the open market as well. If I have a used Model S without FSD and with 50,000 miles for sale, I would look at the used Model S's of comparable mileage in Tesla's used inventory, and sell mine for a few thousand less than Tesla is asking. I would be getting around $5,000+ more than the car would be worth if Tesla wasn't artificially inflating the prices of used cars they have in inventory by adding FSD to all of them. One of my questions is how will FSD subscriptions affect the practice of adding FSD to every used Tesla that comes into inventory?

Used car prices are still unusually high right now, and not just Teslas, due to chip shortages and other factors so this probably isn't the best time to be assessing the "typical" used car market. However, even before the subscription option was added, Tesla had backed off a bit from adding FSD to all used inventory cars. They had also been willing to remove FSD, at least in some cases, to make a sale. Right now, Tesla has some used inventory vehicles with HW3 but wthout FSD.

I wouldn't say Tesla has necessarily been "artificially inflating" prices unless you assume FSD is basically worth nothing in the used retail market. I have in the past on a number of occasions seen composable used Tesla inventory cars - one with FSD and one without - with prices within a couple thousand dollars of each other. While FSD does increase the price/value, I think your $10k figure is high and not the norm.

Also, keep in mind that it's not just FSD that can raise Tesla used inventory prices (versus other sources) but also things like the 1 year additional warranty (all models), acceleration boost (some M3 and MY models), etc.

While the process of buying a used car through Tesla can certainly have its issues, I think many feel (right or wrong) that it's worth a premium over going thourgh a third party dealer or private seller. As such, Tesla is able to seek higher prices than some others regardless of FSD or no FSD.

 

[Watts_Up]

About City Driving using FSD, I still think that there is a need to have cameras placed at the front of the car looking perpendicularly at the left and the right.

The issue is when you are at an intersection without traffic light, when there are cars, in particular big SUVs or Pickup trucks,
parked on the side of the road at an intersection, the wide angle camera on the B pillar on each side of the car cannot see the traffic coming,
on your left or on your right, unless you move the front of your car enough in the intersection to see the traffic coming.

But doing so, the front of your car is inside the lane of the traffic, forcing other cars to avoid you, which can be dangerous for bicycles,
or when a big truck or bus is coming forcing those or to stop or to change lane to avoid your car.

Making a left turn at an intersection, or even making a right turn into the traffic when exiting from a parking lot,
is already challenging for a human person, I am skeptical that FSD could safely works without additional cameras at each corners of the car.

 

[stopcrazypp]

About City Driving using FSD, I still think that there is a need to have cameras placed at the front of the car looking perpendicularly at the left and the right.

The issue is when you are at an intersection without traffic light, when there are cars, in particular big SUVs or Pickup trucks,
parked on the side of the road at an intersection, the wide angle camera on the B pillar on each side of the car cannot see the traffic coming,
on your left or on your right, unless you move the front of your car enough in the intersection to see the traffic coming.

But doing so, the front of your car is inside the lane of the traffic, forcing other cars to avoid you, which can be dangerous for bicycles,
or when a big truck or bus is coming forcing those or to stop or to change lane to avoid your car.

Making a left turn at an intersection, or even making a right turn into the traffic when exiting from a parking lot,
is already challenging for a human person, I am skeptical that FSD could safely works without additional cameras at each corners of the car.

From the FSD videos, the car just angles itself so that the pillar cameras can see. I haven't seen it require pulling into the traffic lane, as the road is typically wide enough that it doesn't have to do that. I guess you could come up with a situation where it is in a narrow alley where it is restricted from being able to use that angle. However, in that case I believe even a human driver may have to pull into the driving lane a bit to be able to see (given while the human driver is not as far back as the b-pillar, the driver still is in the driver's seat which is back behind the hood of the car).

I think the only location Tesla can do it and peek existing body panels, is on the repeater cams. Just add two other ones that face forward in the same housing.

 

[Daniel in SD]

About City Driving using FSD, I still think that there is a need to have cameras placed at the front of the car looking perpendicularly at the left and the right.

The issue is when you are at an intersection without traffic light, when there are cars, in particular big SUVs or Pickup trucks,
parked on the side of the road at an intersection, the wide angle camera on the B pillar on each side of the car cannot see the traffic coming,
on your left or on your right, unless you move the front of your car enough in the intersection to see the traffic coming.

But doing so, the front of your car is inside the lane of the traffic, forcing other cars to avoid you, which can be dangerous for bicycles,
or when a big truck or bus is coming forcing those or to stop or to change lane to avoid your car.

Making a left turn at an intersection, or even making a right turn into the traffic when exiting from a parking lot,
is already challenging for a human person, I am skeptical that FSD could safely works without additional cameras at each corners of the car.

I could be much worse. Really they're not that far behind the driver. It does seem like an issue for monitoring the system since you can see things it can't which makes for uncomfortable situations. Also, other drivers will expect you to see them when they can see you in the driver seat.

 

[Ugene]

I have EAP with HW2.5. Do you know if it is worth upgrading to HW3 for $1500. Will the existing EAP functions work better with the new hardware?
By better I don't just mean better visualizations.

 

[TexasTezla]

Cool. I think it's cheap considering a 4+ year break even for the upfront purchasing. I would have guess they would make it a 2 year break even.

Anyone know the cancellation terms? Can you cancel after a month, wait a month and then re-subscribe for a month, etc? Any commitment beyond a month?

For me it is a 2 year break even ;-)

 

[emmz0r]

For EAP users the only thing you get for $100 is responding to traffic lights. It's a comedy at this point. Tesla should stop charging an arm and a leg until FSD is public, and put automatic lane change into the standard AP.
And this is from someone who has FSD...

 

[thefrog1394]

Used car prices are still unusually high right now, and not just Teslas, due to chip shortages and other factors so this probably isn't the best time to be assessing the "typical" used car market. However, even before the subscription option was added, Tesla had backed off a bit from adding FSD to all used inventory cars. They had also been willing to remove FSD, at least in some cases, to make a sale. Right now, Tesla has some used inventory vehicles with HW3 but wthout FSD.

I wouldn't say Tesla has necessarily been "artificially inflating" prices unless you assume FSD is basically worth nothing in the used retail market. I have in the past on a number of occasions seen composable used Tesla inventory cars - one with FSD and one without - with prices within a couple thousand dollars of each other. While FSD does increase the price/value, I think your $10k figure is high and not the norm.

Also, keep in mind that it's not just FSD that can raise Tesla used inventory prices (versus other sources) but also things like the 1 year additional warranty (all models), acceleration boost (some M3 and MY models), etc.

While the process of buying a used car through Tesla can certainly have its issues, I think many feel (right or wrong) that it's worth a premium over going thourgh a third party dealer or private seller. As such, Tesla is able to seek higher prices than some others regardless of FSD or no FSD.

I have found Tesla used prices (on cars without FSD) in the past to be better than elsewhere in many cases. With FSD, Tesla can be a little more expensive, although it's often hard to tell if a used car at a random dealership has FSD so if you value the FSD functionality the Tesla used site allows you to shop nationwide without showing up or calling a million different places and hoping to get someone to go check the car for you.

Private party sales are a different story and while I'm sure deals can be found, with trade-in values as high as they are, it seems like those who chose to sell privately are often not willing to let cars go for much of a deal.

Overall, since blue book style pricing guides seem not to factor in FSD and dealers often don't bother to differentiate between FSD, EAP, or AP in their listing, it seems like the market price trends towards the average between FSD and no FSD.

 

[THXULTRA]

I have EAP with HW2.5. Do you know if it is worth upgrading to HW3 for $1500. Will the existing EAP functions work better with the new hardware?
By better I don't just mean better visualizations.

Do you ever plan on getting Full Self driving? I have heard it may make smoother lane changes with the Full self driving computer but haven't seen any proof of that. If you don't plan on ever getting Full Self driving the computer isn't worth the $1500... Also Full Self driving isn't worth it now for you either since all you will gain is traffic light control.

 

[CapeOne]

I have found Tesla used prices (on cars without FSD) in the past to be better than elsewhere in many cases. With FSD, Tesla can be a little more expensive, although it's often hard to tell if a used car at a random dealership has FSD so if you value the FSD functionality the Tesla used site allows you to shop nationwide without showing up or calling a million different places and hoping to get someone to go check the car for you.

Private party sales are a different story and while I'm sure deals can be found, with trade-in values as high as they are, it seems like those who chose to sell privately are often not willing to let cars go for much of a deal.

Overall, since blue book style pricing guides seem not to factor in FSD and dealers often don't bother to differentiate between FSD, EAP, or AP in their listing, it seems like the market price trends towards the average between FSD and no FSD.

I do think that there is some hesitancy among third party dealers to put much value on FSD over fears (justified or not) that it may be stripped away by Tesla at some point. However, KBB does attempt to value FSD in their calculations although how exactly it should be added isn't clear. Do you add AP or EAP along with FSD? FSD only and assume AP/EAP is included? Ideally, when you select FSD it should be made obvious that AP or EAP is factored in but it doesn't work that way.

 

[Knightshade]

Do you add AP or EAP along with FSD? FSD only and assume AP/EAP is included? Ideally, when you select FSD it should be made obvious that AP or EAP is factored in but it doesn't work that way.

I'm unclear why this would matter?

Since FSD includes all lower-tier features... and the total net cost has been fairly similar forever...

 

[MP3Mike]

I'm unclear why this would matter?

Since FSD includes all lower-tier features... and the total net cost has been fairly similar forever...

Because we don't know the KBB algorithm. They could value AP $1k, EAP $2k, and FSD $4k and expect you to check all three not just FSD. Which would total $7k. (After all you do have all three features if you have FSD. )

 

[Knightshade]

Because we don't know the KBB algorithm. They could value AP $1k, EAP $2k, and FSD $4k and expect you to check all three not just FSD. Which would total $7k. (After all you do have all three features if you have FSD. )

I would hope their system would be smart enough that if you check a higher "includes lower trim things" option it'd understand that fact.

But I might be expecting too much from KBB.

 

[S&B's M3]

I haven't clicked on it, but it's on my phone today. Anyone tried it? Cost??

 

[qdeathstar]

I have EAP with HW2.5. Do you know if it is worth upgrading to HW3 for $1500. Will the existing EAP functions work better with the new hardware?
By better I don't just mean better visualizations.

Probably not, you might need to upgrade to hw4 at some point....