Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[Jeremy3292]

Tire contact patch limits our ability to accelerate in any direction. This is why the new M3P has wider tires in back. The 235 width tire was a limiting factor slowing acceleration in the old car, so one way they made it faster is to add more tire.

You can do that to make cars turn better too, and most performance cars have wide tires for that reason.

Most 4000 lb cars have wider tires than 235 because that’s a very narrow tire to control a 4000 lb vehicle. Tesla uses them for range, not because it’s the best tire width for controlling a vehicle this heavy.

Very helpful, thank you

 

[golfcart]

Reference I came to find about 7-8 days ago testing New M3P vs Old M3P vs 2021+ S LR.

If it is somewhat accurate; then the new M3P will match the SLR on high end 1/4 mile?

View attachment 1051572

I don't understand how that table shows the new P3D vs old P3D at 60 with basically the same time... doesn't seem to jive with the rest of the data where the new one is well ahead at 30, 80, 90 etc... I also don't understand why the Old P3D column is missing data for 110 and 120 but has it for 130. So I am a little skeptical of the data. It seems like the Old P3D and MSLR data should be pretty widely available to confirm and the new P3D will probably get tested a lot in the next month or so.

But if you trust it and assume it is pretty accurate then you can see that the 80-130 times are 10.9, 8, and 6.1 respectively for the Old P3D, New P3D, and MSLR. So the MSLR is still a lot faster up top than the new P3D up top but the new P3D would be a good bit quicker than the old one.

 

[oreobbq]

I personally think he oversold how “terrible” the long range is. The long range price is indeed too high, but it’s not a terrible car or something not worth buying. He also just assumes everyone qualifies for the tax credit and that the tax credit will be around forever. Plus he talked a lot about swapping parts and rims and this and that for the P to make it a LR basically, but 99% of buyers don’t do things like that. A staggered 20” summer tire setup is a big turnoff for a lot of “regular” people who just want a solid daily driver. The LR fits that bill for most people. I also tend to dislike when videos just seem to be hype videos and nothing else (like this one).

RWD = LFP
LR = NMC
P = NCA

If the product is great, I want to know why and it would be strange for the guy not to be excited and come across as a sourpuss. If the hype is deserved, the m3p will be the benchmark for cars in this class.

I haven’t watched a lot of his stuff but he is much more knowledgeable than most presenters I’ve seen. Better than that TopGear review where the main critique was the lack of fake engine noise.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Tire contact patch limits our ability to accelerate in any direction. This is why the new M3P has wider tires in back. The 235 width tire was a limiting factor slowing acceleration in the old car, so one way they made it faster is to add more tire.

You can do that to make cars turn better too, and most performance cars have wide tires for that reason.

Most 4000 lb cars have wider tires than 235 because that’s a very narrow tire to control a 4000 lb vehicle. Tesla uses them for range, not because it’s the best tire width for controlling a vehicle this heavy.

Yes, wider tires definitely can improve traction in some cases. However, the old car was not traction limited. I ran 3.06 without subtracting rollout 0-60 mph and 11.24 @ 119.42 mph with all season 235 tires all the way around and interior weight reductions.

The 16% torque improvement puts the new car into traction limited range. The new car can take advantage of the extra traction because they allow more torque. The old car limited torque to where tire width was irrelevant for straight line acceleration.

For curves the 235 tires are a handicap on any of the Model 3 cars. Going wider will definitely help there.

For efficiency the wider tires will really hurt. I have a set of four 235/35/20 Aero wheels and tires I am going to daily with my 2024 Model 3 Performance. Stock wheels and tires will be for the Dragstrip only.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I don't understand how that table shows the new P3D vs old P3D at 60 with basically the same time... doesn't seem to jive with the rest of the data where the new one is well ahead at 30, 80, 90 etc... I also don't understand why the Old P3D column is missing data for 110 and 120 but has it for 130. So I am a little skeptical of the data. It seems like the Old P3D and MSLR data should be pretty widely available to confirm and the new P3D will probably get tested a lot in the next month or so.

But if you trust it and assume it is pretty accurate then you can see that the 80-130 times are 10.9, 8, and 6.1 respectively for the Old P3D, New P3D, and MSLR. So the MSLR is still a lot faster up top than the new P3D up top but the new P3D would be a good bit quicker than the old one.

Nobody ever came close to breaking 11s for 60-130 mph with the old Model 3. Best I could do was 11.11 going downhill with a gutted car and improved aerodynamics. 10.9 is impossible in the old car without permanent modifications.

I would be surprised if the new car is anywhere near 8.0 for 60-130 mph. 9.74 is the best I have seen.

 

[Gasaraki]

What is he referring to about the Long Range Model 3 having slower charging batteries? Can someone who understands battery chemistry explain the difference between the batteries in the RWD, LR and M3P?

Ok, yeah he really doesn't know the most up to date Tesla battery configurations.

M3 SR (Standard Range RWD) - Uses LFP made by CATL in China. LFP have lower power density so that's why they are used in the SR. For a given battery size, they can hold less energy (to simplify). Slow charge and discharge rates. The advantage to LFPs are that they can be charged to 100% very often and should be charged to 100% at least once a week. Potentially slower degradation.

M3 LR (Long Range AWD) - Uses NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) made by LG Chem in Korea. These batteries have a slower charge and discharge rate compared to NCA. That is why the performance Model 3 don't use these. Very similar to the NCA however in advantages and drawbacks.

M3 Performance AWD - Uses NCA (Nickel Cobalt Aluminum) made by Tesla/Panasonic in the USA. Higher charge and discharge rate, higher energy density, potentially higher battery degradation compared to LFP. Should only be charged to 100% when needed and shouldn't be kept at 100% charge for extended amount of time.

 

[Izzyz28]

Tire contact patch limits our ability to accelerate in any direction. This is why the new M3P has wider tires in back. The 235 width tire was a limiting factor slowing acceleration in the old car, so one way they made it faster is to add more tire.

You can do that to make cars turn better too, and most performance cars have wide tires for that reason.

Most 4000 lb cars have wider tires than 235 because that’s a very narrow tire to control a 4000 lb vehicle. Tesla uses them for range, not because it’s the best tire width for controlling a vehicle this heavy.

The 235's on the previous generation did not slow it down a bit, the thing dead-hooks even in the wet in a straight line. Even with $89 Westlake tires with a 500 treadwear rating they dead-hook, traction just isn't a factor for acceleration. My Plaid is about 5,100 pounds with me in it, has nearly twice the power of a 3P, and only has 285's in the rear and 255's in the front. It does just fine, even on a road course. There is a slight amount of understeer(safer than oversteer), but that should be corrected to a more neutral balance of grip with the 285 square setup coming this weekend. Tire compound matters way more than tread width.

 

[Sweed269]

Wider tires hurt range and improve handlining on the Model 3/Y. Tesla only under sizes the fronts for range numbers.
In a straight line it doesn't matter.

I will never understand how terminal understeer is "safer". A neutral that can both understeer/oversteer depending on driver inputs is the safest and maximizes the available grip.

 

[Sellout]

The 235's on the previous generation did not slow it down a bit, the thing dead-hooks even in the wet in a straight line. Even with $89 Westlake tires with a 500 treadwear rating they dead-hook, traction just isn't a factor for acceleration. My Plaid is about 5,100 pounds with me in it, has nearly twice the power of a 3P, and only has 285's in the rear and 255's in the front. It does just fine, even on a road course. There is a slight amount of understeer(safer than oversteer), but that should be corrected to a more neutral balance of grip with the 285 square setup coming this weekend. Tire compound matters way more than tread width.

I can be rather exhausting to post here...

So is it your contention that the fastest lap time ever set in an M3P or a Plaid has been done on factory-sized tires? Nobody has reduced a lap time with wider tires on track?

Sometimes an elementary question, such as, “why would he say it’s under-tired” while discussing a performance car’s driving review video literally needs to be answered in an elementary way. Were not writing engineering studies here.

 

[Sellout]

Wider tires hurt range and improve handlining on the Model 3/Y. Tesla only under sizes the fronts for range numbers.
In a straight line it doesn't matter.

I will never understand how terminal understeer is "safer". A neutral that can both understeer/oversteer depending on driver inputs is the safest and maximizes the available grip.

“Terminal understeer” isn’t safer. That’s every bit as bad as terminal oversteer.

Understeer is safer for general population drivers because they don’t have the skill to deal with an oversteer situation, it’s literally that simple.

 

[golfcart]

Nobody ever came close to breaking 11s for 60-130 mph with the old Model 3. Best I could do was 11.11 going downhill with a gutted car and improved aerodynamics. 10.9 is impossible in the old car without permanent modifications.

I would be surprised if the new car is anywhere near 8.0 for 60-130 mph. 9.74 is the best I have seen.

I definitely defer to you on times for the old P3D as you have tested and documented the performance quite a bit. Once correction though is that I calculated 80-130 times from that table @Destiny1701 posted not 60-130. I have no idea where that data came from though and I am skeptical of it. Using the dragy results posted for the 2024 Performance on page 275 of this thread the new one is about .2s+ faster 0-60 and .5s+ faster in the 1/4 mile... stock vs stock. I put the data from the Dragy screen caps on page 275 into a table below.

	Old P3D	2024 P3D	2021 MSLR
0-60 (no rollout)		2.99
1/8 mi		7.06
1000ft		9.2
1/4 mi		11.03
60-130		9.74
0-130		12.73

If someone has a similar performance report for a stock Old P3D (on 20's) and MSLR then they could certainly update the above table with 0-60, 1/8 mile, 1/4 mile, 60 - 130, etc... then compare it to the data posted on page 275 for the 2024 P3D. Those data probably exist on the forum somewhere I just don't have it readily available. That is the comparison that matters to me, stock vs stock both on 20s just to get a feel for how each car performs out of the box.

 

[Jeremy3292]

Yes, wider tires definitely can improve traction in some cases. However, the old car was not traction limited. I ran 3.06 without subtracting rollout 0-60 mph and 11.24 @ 119.42 mph with all season 235 tires all the way around and interior weight reductions.

The 16% torque improvement puts the new car into traction limited range. The new car can take advantage of the extra traction because they allow more torque. The old car limited torque to where tire width was irrelevant for straight line acceleration.

For curves the 235 tires are a handicap on any of the Model 3 cars. Going wider will definitely help there.

For efficiency the wider tires will really hurt. I have a set of four 235/35/20 Aero wheels and tires I am going to daily with my 2024 Model 3 Performance. Stock wheels and tires will be for the Dragstrip only.

So very likely a set of 235/40/19 wheels in a square setup (and no aero caps) is still more efficient than the stock 20” staggered setup (with wide rear tires) even with those aero caps.

 

[Jeremy3292]

Ok, yeah he really doesn't know the most up to date Tesla battery configurations.

M3 SR (Standard Range RWD) - Uses LFP made by CATL in China. LFP have lower power density so that's why they are used in the SR. For a given battery size, they can hold less energy (to simplify). Slow charge and discharge rates. The advantage to LFPs are that they can be charged to 100% very often and should be charged to 100% at least once a week. Potentially slower degradation.

M3 LR (Long Range AWD) - Uses NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) made by LG Chem in Korea. These batteries have a slower charge and discharge rate compared to NCA. That is why the performance Model 3 don't use these. Very similar to the NCA however in advantages and drawbacks.

M3 Performance AWD - Uses NCA (Nickel Cobalt Aluminum) made by Tesla/Panasonic in the USA. Higher charge and discharge rate, higher energy density, potentially higher battery degradation compared to LFP. Should only be charged to 100% when needed and shouldn't be kept at 100% charge for extended amount of time.

Yeah there is nothing wrong with the LG Chem battery in the LR, not sure why he said there was. I think he forgets 99% of the population is not like him and is not drag racing or doing anything other than driving the car to work or the family on vacation.

 

[phantasms]

I definitely defer to you on times for the old P3D as you have tested and documented the performance quite a bit. Once correction though is that I calculated 80-130 times from that table @Destiny1701 posted not 60-130. I have no idea where that data came from though and I am skeptical of it. Using the dragy results posted for the 2024 Performance on page 275 of this thread the new one is about .2s+ faster 0-60 and .5s+ faster in the 1/4 mile... stock vs stock. I put the data from the Dragy screen caps on page 275 into a table below.

	Old P3D	2024 P3D	2021 MSLR
0-60 (no rollout)		2.99
1/8 mi	7.25	7.06
1000ft	9.45	9.2
1/4 mi	[email protected]	11.03
60-130		9.74
0-130		12.73

If someone has a similar performance report for a stock Old P3D (on 20's) and MSLR then they could certainly update the above table with 0-60, 1/8 mile, 1/4 mile, 60 - 130, etc... then compare it to the data posted on page 275 for the 2024 P3D. Those data probably exist on the forum somewhere I just don't have it readily available. That is the comparison that matters to me, stock vs stock both on 20s just to get a feel for how each car performs out of the box.

I filled in some data from my 21 full stock run at Cecil County drag strip. This was a very strong [record?] run.

	Old P3D	2024 P3D	2021 MSLR
0-60 (no rollout)		2.99
1/8 mi	7.25	7.06
1000ft	9.45	9.2
1/4 mi	[email protected]	11.03
60-130		9.74
0-130		12.73

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I filled in some data from my 21 full stock run at Cecil County drag strip. This was a very strong [record?] run.

	Old P3D	2024 P3D	2021 MSLR
0-60 (no rollout)		2.99
1/8 mi	7.25	7.06
1000ft	9.45	9.2
1/4 mi	[email protected]	11.03
60-130		9.74
0-130		12.73

Do you have the time slip from that run? That would be extremely quick for a 100% stock 2021 Model 3 Performance. Was this a Stealth Performance?

 

[phantasms]

Do you have the time slip from that run? That would be extremely quick for a 100% stock 2021 Model 3 Performance. Was this a Stealth Performance?

Enjoy! Pretty sure it's a stock tire/wheel/weight record. Standard P, not stealth. I was at about 97% SoC and preconditioned for a Supercharger. I've taken many cars to the drag strip and my skinny ass is always able to extract the most performance, from rowing gears to EV accelerator mash.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Enjoy! Pretty sure it's a stock tire/wheel/weight record. Standard P, not stealth. I was at about 97% SoC and preconditioned for a Supercharger. I've taken many cars to the drag strip and my skinny ass is always able to extract the most performance, from rowing gears to EV accelerator mash. View attachment 1051609
View attachment 1051612

Quickest one I have ever seen 100% stock on the Uberheavies. Congrats!

 

[oreobbq]

Quickest one I have ever seen 100% stock on the Uberheavies. Congrats!

And word on the street is he runs ultramarathons. You still number one in my heart though.

 

[Destiny1701]

I definitely defer to you on times for the old P3D as you have tested and documented the performance quite a bit. Once correction though is that I calculated 80-130 times from that table @Destiny1701 posted not 60-130. I have no idea where that data came from though and I am skeptical of it. Using the dragy results posted for the 2024 Performance on page 275 of this thread the new one is about .2s+ faster 0-60 and .5s+ faster in the 1/4 mile... stock vs stock. I put the data from the Dragy screen caps on page 275 into a table below.

	Old P3D	2024 P3D	2021 MSLR
0-60 (no rollout)		2.99
1/8 mi		7.06
1000ft		9.2
1/4 mi		11.03
60-130		9.74
0-130		12.73

If someone has a similar performance report for a stock Old P3D (on 20's) and MSLR then they could certainly update the above table with 0-60, 1/8 mile, 1/4 mile, 60 - 130, etc... then compare it to the data posted on page 275 for the 2024 P3D. Those data probably exist on the forum somewhere I just don't have it readily available. That is the comparison that matters to me, stock vs stock both on 20s just to get a feel for how each car performs out of the box.

It was not my result, it was a draggy from a new owner on YT. Don’t shoot the messenger!

I would also appreciate a new data table to ensure validity.

 

[GregD60]

I personally think he oversold how “terrible” the long range is. The long range price is indeed too high, but it’s not a terrible car or something not worth buying. He also just assumes everyone qualifies for the tax credit and that the tax credit will be around forever. Plus he talked a lot about swapping parts and rims and this and that for the P to make it a LR basically, but 99% of buyers don’t do things like that. A staggered 20” summer tire setup is a big turnoff for a lot of “regular” people who just want a solid daily driver. The LR fits that bill for most people. I also tend to dislike when videos just seem to be hype videos and nothing else (like this one).

RWD = LFP
LR = NMC
P = NCA

Kyle is a serious car enthusiast, and he was obviously excited about how the new M3P drives, similar to how Jason Cammisa was about the M3P. Kyle and his team specialize in EVs on his channels, and they're probably the most knowledgeable car reviewers on YouTube regarding EVs. As for swapping parts and changing rims and tires, that is what lots of enthusiasts do to their cars, to tailor them to meet their desires. When it comes to the M3 Performance, a lot of people change out the wheels and tires, my guess would be at least 10%. Many of us have more than one set of wheels and tires to optimize the car for different situations.

What Kyle was pointing out was that with the new M3P, you can kind of have your cake and eat it too if you're a performance oriented driver. Assuming that you qualify for the tax credit, which the vast majority of Tesla buyers do, the cost of the M3P is less than the LR. Changing the wheels and tires to something more efficient will give the P most of the range of the LR, and you'll still have better acceleration, handling, and braking than the LR. It's kind of a can't lose proposition.