Model 3P-D 0-60 prediction?

[kingjamez]

Look.
LiNiCoAlO2 cathode (~9% Co), graphite anode is what they are using and are working to get rid of the Cobalt on that Anode, however as we know Cobalt is an excellent stable storage medium when sandwiched with Li.

1C; 2.50V cut off. Discharge current above 1C shortens battery life. As well as the C-Rate charge over 1C tears a battery up. It does matter what battery you use or its capacity....lithium recycle rate drops to nothing when being charged or discharged above 1C. That holds true for all batteries that utilize Lithium.

So...with that said..... The more batteries you have in a pack allows you to pull 1C out of more batteries at once. For instance if you had a single gigantic cell at 75kwh...you could only pull 1C out of it. If you have 3000 cells @ 75kwh in sum...you can achieve at least 30C if you properly keep your parallel / serial / cooling circuits configured properly.
One reason I believe Tesla uses round cells as apposed to flat cells as in the Leaf and other EV's is because there is more surface area to cool thereby being able to keep the C-rate up.

The number of cells matters dramatically when talking about C rate because of temperature. You can't pull high C rates from a single battery because you won't be able to cool the inner-core. Even if a single cell can charge and discharge at 3C you won't be able to prevent thermal runaway of Lithium because you won't be able to cool it.

Now that we are a little further in the weeds.....google the properties of controlled lithium when cobalt is on the anode.

I wrote a long rebuttal to this, but it was quite snippy. So I’ll just say this.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how chemistry affects the C rate of the cell. This is likely due to the fact that you also have a fundamental misunderstanding of how C works. You possibly don’t understand how parallel cells affect the potential output of a pack.

The cells in a Model S are around 3ah each. My S75D charges at 93kW and discharges at over 150kW. Think about how that relates to your position.

Your googling doesn’t matter because no-one has the chemistry specs on the 2170’s in the 3.
-Jim

 

[Garlan Garner]

I wrote a long rebuttal to this, but it was quite snippy. So I’ll just say this.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how chemistry affects the C rate of the cell. This is likely due to the fact that you also have a fundamental misunderstanding of how C works. You possibly don’t understand how parallel cells affect the potential output of a pack.

The cells in a Model S are around 3ah each. My S75D charges at 93kW and discharges at over 150kW. Think about how that relates to your position.

Your googling doesn’t matter because no-one has the chemistry specs on the 2170’s in the 3.
-Jim

LOL.

You are absolutely wrong. There are many 2170 specs out there for the exact chemical makeup of Tesla's Panasonic cells. Panasonic posted them.

There is no sense of debating you because I posted the 2170 specs in the powerwall from Panasonic

I helped to create a series of videos explaining this.

The module configuration is more important than the cells themselves because the modules have many resistance points. You can't just do a study on a cell and apply those numbers to the car.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I think it's important to make a very relevant distinction here:

When Tesla wants to set apart 2 models or trims to prevent Osborning themselves, they do it for CURRENT models and trims. With that being said, a Model 3 Performance may very well have better 0-60 times than a P100D.....but it's entirely possible Tesla just announces a bigger battery pack and a refresh for the S.

That way, they get their customers at both ends.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

About a year ago. Something along the lines of “the Model S will always be our premium vehicle & the quickest”

*"the NEWEST Model S will always be our premium vehicle and the quickest" is what it should have said.


Otherwise, the benchmark would have been the P90D and all other Teslas would be slower.

 

[GatorGuy]

I think it's important to make a very relevant distinction here:

When Tesla wants to set apart 2 models or trims to prevent Osborning themselves, they do it for CURRENT models and trims. With that being said, a Model 3 Performance may very well have better 0-60 times than a P100D.....but it's entirely possible Tesla just announces a bigger battery pack and a refresh for the S.

That way, they get their customers at both ends.

In my opinion there is zero chance it'll be faster than a P100D. All their margin is on the MS/MX right now, and even more so the P cars.

The issue is that if they make them similar speeds and then announce a new MS P car, there are limits to how fast they make a 5000lb car accelerate. Atleast safely on the street. For instance when they announced the P100D over the P90D, both with ludicrous mode, it went from a 2.8 to 2.5 second 0 to 60 time. The lower you go, the smaller the diminishing returns so if you have a P3D at 2.4, the new P car would barely faster at 2.2 if they can even achieve that. Tesla doesn't want a single customer to buy a P3D who would have bought a P100D.

BMW, Audi and MB don't do that and neither will Tesla.

The new roadster won't have this problem since it will be all designed for speed and much lighter and more power.

 

[voip-ninja]

In my opinion there is zero chance it'll be faster than a P100D. All their margin is on the MS/MX right now, and even more so the P cars.

The issue is that if they make them similar speeds and then announce a new MS P car, there are limits to how fast they make a 5000lb car accelerate. Atleast safely on the street. For instance when they announced the P100D over the P90D, both with ludicrous mode, it went from a 2.8 to 2.5 second 0 to 60 time. The lower you go, the smaller the diminishing returns so if you have a P3D at 2.4, the new P car would barely faster at 2.2 if they can even achieve that. Tesla doesn't want a single customer to buy a P3D who would have bought a P100D.

BMW, Audi and MB don't do that and neither will Tesla.

The new roadster won't have this problem since it will be all designed for speed and much lighter and more power.

Up until quite recently it was common for the top spec of a given model to out-perform the top-spec of larger more expensive models among German manufacturers. Because physics. Larger heavier car harder to accelerate.

Audi S4 faster than Audi S6, etc.

That trend is changing where now it seems the Germans are going the Tesla route and their larger more expensive cars must be the fastest. New BMW M5 has 600 hp and does 0-60 in about 3.2 seconds, quite a bit faster than the respectable times the BMW M3 can turn.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

In my opinion there is zero chance it'll be faster than a P100D. All their margin is on the MS/MX right now, and even more so the P cars.

The issue is that if they make them similar speeds and then announce a new MS P car, there are limits to how fast they make a 5000lb car accelerate. Atleast safely on the street. For instance when they announced the P100D over the P90D, both with ludicrous mode, it went from a 2.8 to 2.5 second 0 to 60 time. The lower you go, the smaller the diminishing returns so if you have a P3D at 2.4, the new P car would barely faster at 2.2 if they can even achieve that. Tesla doesn't want a single customer to buy a P3D who would have bought a P100D.

BMW, Audi and MB don't do that and neither will Tesla.

The new roadster won't have this problem since it will be all designed for speed and much lighter and more power.

I can see from your sig that you're biased, understandably....but what if you woke up one morning, and the P100D wasn't the top-of-the-line S anymore?


EDIT:


Same tactic with "the Germans". There's no guarantee that your 5 year old A6 is going to be faster than the brand new A4. Why? They want you to move into a newer car, regardless if it's an A4 or A6. They'd prefer the A6, obviously, but they don't make nearly as much money off you if you just stay in your current car.

 

[GatorGuy]

I can see from your sig that you're biased, understandably....but what if you woke up one morning, and the P100D wasn't the top-of-the-line S anymore?


EDIT:


Same tactic with "the Germans". There's no guarantee that your 5 year old A6 is going to be faster than the brand new A4. Why? They want you to move into a newer car, regardless if it's an A4 or A6. They'd prefer the A6, obviously, but they don't make nearly as much money off you if you just stay in your current car.

You came into an incorrect conclusion again. If you go look at the AWD 3 thread you'll see where I've say I want a P3D as a track car. You'll also see that I am on record of saying I want Tesla to max the acceleration. I have no interest in having a DD driver faster than a track car. However, that doesn't change the facts. I still don't think they'll make the P3D anywhere close to the MS for reasons stated before.

 

[Ludalicious]

If they do. It better not be faster than the Model 's'. I would cry being beat by a model 3. But since it's way lighter. I wouldn't doubt that it could be faster. They already have the motors....

 

[ModelNforNerd]

You came into an incorrect conclusion again. If you go look at the AWD 3 thread you'll see where I've say I want a P3D as a track car. You'll also see that I am on record of saying I want Tesla to max the acceleration. I have no interest in having a DD driver faster than a track car. However, that doesn't change the facts. I still don't think they'll make the P3D anywhere close to the MS for reasons stated before.

I think they're going to make the top of the line 3 better than the BMW M3. I think Elon is going after the Germans' bread and butter with this car. It will be about his ego vis a vis his cars versus theirs, and not a comparison of cars within his own lineup.


Hopefully we'll all find out any day now.

 

[azentropy]

I’m thinking 3.5 from the start, and will add its own ludicrous mode to get < 3.0 eventually.

 

[chickensworth]

In my opinion there is zero chance it'll be faster than a P100D. All their margin is on the MS/MX right now, and even more so the P cars.

i think a model 3 performance could carry a hefty margin if they price it accordingly. How much would the market support for a car that consistently hits 60 in the 2's and sits 5 comfortably? A case could be made for pricing the car at six figures if the performance is commensurate... that would be a huge margin over the current model.
What's the price to performance sweet spot on this car?

 

[ModelNforNerd]

i think a model 3 performance could carry a hefty margin if they price it accordingly. How much would the market support for a car that consistently hits 60 in the 2's and sits 5 comfortably? A case could be made for pricing the car at six figures if the performance is commensurate... that would be a huge margin over the current model.
What's the price to performance sweet spot on this car?

I think Elon's ego is coming in to play here. He wants it to gut the Germans, and he won't do that at six figures. If he wants to fire shots at the A4/S4/A6/S6/M3, and even M5, he's gonna have to put it around $80K tops.

 

[Mayhem]

Anything in the low 3's would be nice. You're talking faster than most but not all Porsche, BMW, Audi.

 

[GatorGuy]

i think a model 3 performance could carry a hefty margin if they price it accordingly. How much would the market support for a car that consistently hits 60 in the 2's and sits 5 comfortably? A case could be made for pricing the car at six figures if the performance is commensurate... that would be a huge margin over the current model.
What's the price to performance sweet spot on this car?

They already have that. Its the Model S P100D. They don't want people buying a 3 instead of MS but rather they want people to buy a P3D who never would have never bought a P100D either because of cost, or size or some other preference.

I think Elon's ego is coming in to play here. He wants it to gut the Germans, and he won't do that at six figures. If he wants to fire shots at the A4/S4/A6/S6/M3, and even M5, he's gonna have to put it around $80K tops.

It matters if we are talking about a base price or fully loaded C63S / M3 go for. Those actually hit 6 figures these days.

Cars for Sale in Jacksonville, FL 32256 - Autotrader

 

[ModelNforNerd]

It matters if we are talking about a base price or fully loaded C63S / M3 go for. Those actually hit 6 figures these days.

Considering the spartan approach to the Model 3's interior, I still think six figures is going to be a stretch.

 

[GatorGuy]

Considering the spartan approach to the Model 3's interior, I still think six figures is going to be a stretch.

I agree. I hope it is farrrr cheaper than that. Honestly I have no clue what they'll do with the pricing. Hopefully the price difference isn't as great as a 100D and P100D.

I would love to see a base model in the high 60's. Give it 3 to 3.5 60 time and they might be surprised just how many they sell.

 

[chickensworth]

They already have that. Its the Model S P100D. They don't want people buying a 3 instead of MS but rather they want people to buy a P3D who never would have never bought a P100D either because of cost, or size or some other preference.



It matters if we are talking about a base price or fully loaded C63S / M3 go for. Those actually hit 6 figures these days.

Cars for Sale in Jacksonville, FL 32256 - Autotrader

There will always be some cross shopping between the 3 and S, but the S is a bigger heavier car built more for touring or eating up freeway... the 3 is a smaller, more nimble sport sedan. They serve different segments for different reasons and high performance can be a shared trait. Just like the every AMG uses practically the same motor packaged in a different platform for different segments without cannibalization.

 

[McHoffa]

My guesses...

0-60mph
SR RWD 5.6 seconds ($35,000)
LR RWD 5.1 seconds ($44,000)
LR AWD 4.9 second ($49,000)
LR AWD Performance 3.9 seconds ($59,000)
LR AWD Performance with Ludicrous Upgrade 2.9 seconds ($69,000)

They don't have separate P and ludicrous models on the rest of the lineup so I highly doubt they would here, and also, the P100D instantly adds $33k over the 100D with same options, so I'd expect something closer to that over the AWD LR 3 (which itself will probably be $54k).

I'd not set my pricing expectations too low here, or you might be disappointed. So far option pricing is about the same for 3 vs S/X.

 

[jimmyjohn]

Three character tweet --- that would blow the auto world.

If Elon tweets three characters (where the characters would be the 0-60 and a link to the PM3 specs), it would be such a great announcement.

Something like this:

2.9