Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week!

[donkemaen]

What was the previous record for a 4 door at LS?

Maybe the Jaguar XE SV Project 8:
Jaguar's Project 8 saloon has broken another record

But I did not find it on this list:
Laguna Seca (post 1988) lap times - FastestLaps.com

But that is a huge improvement over this:
Tesla reclaims Laguna Seca record with a Model 3 Performance driven by an amateur - Electrek

 

[wenkan]

What was the previous record for a 4 door at LS?

Model 3’s record was 1:42 stock and 1:37 mod (slicks). If Model S is faster I will definitely be more confident for the ring test.

 

[Todd Burch]

The BMW M5 (F90) had the 4 door record at Laguna Seca with a time of 1:39.81:

Laguna Seca (post 1988) lap times - FastestLaps.com

The M5’s best time at Nürburgring was 7:38.92:

BMW M5 F90 laptimes, specs, performance data - FastestLaps.com

So S faster than M5 on Laguna Seca.

M5 faster than Taycan on Nürburgring.

Referring to my 3rd grade math rules, it seems very likely the S can be faster than M5 on Nürburgring and therefore faster than Taycan.

So the S is very much in the game here.

Cue all the doubters...

 

[Destiny1701]

Model 3’s record was 1:42 stock and 1:37 mod (slicks). If Model S is faster I will definitely be more confident for the ring test.

Where is this data? Can’t find anywhere on a search and on Lag Seca lap times for 2018 or 2019. No Tesla time recorded.

 

[Todd Burch]

Where is this data? Can’t find anywhere on a search and on Lag Seca lap times for 2018 or 2019. No Tesla time recorded.

Might be unofficial. But doesn’t matter, as Elon will be posting a video of the S’s lap within 24 hrs.

And for all talking about Elon time, he said the S would be at the Ring “next week” and it’s already there, so he’s kept his word there.

Record attempt will likely be next week though, as they are tuning the car this week per Musk’s tweets.

 

[mattwhite]

The BMW M5 (F90) had the 4 door record at Laguna Seca with a time of 1:39.81:

Laguna Seca (post 1988) lap times - FastestLaps.com

The M5’s best time at Nürburgring was 7:38.92:

BMW M5 F90 laptimes, specs, performance data - FastestLaps.com

So S faster than M5 on Laguna Seca.

M5 faster than Taycan on Nürburgring.

Referring to my 3rd grade math rules, it seems very likely the S can be faster than M5 on Nürburgring and therefore faster than Taycan.

So the S is very much in the game here.

Cue all the doubters...

Even if the Model S is quicker around Laguna Seca, you can't then draw the conclusion that it will be quicker around the Ring. "3rd grade math" doesn't work here. Performance on the track over 2.2 miles cannot be extrapolated to performance over 13 miles, especially when comparing ICE to electric. I'll say it again, unless Tesla is bringing a modified car with entirely new brakes, it won't stand a chance.

 

[Todd Burch]

Even if the Model S is quicker around Laguna Seca, you can't then draw the conclusion that it will be quicker around the Ring. "3rd grade math" doesn't work here. Performance on the track over 2.2 miles cannot be extrapolated to performance over 13 miles, especially when comparing ICE to electric. I'll say it again, unless Tesla is bringing a modified car with entirely new brakes, it won't stand a chance.

I didn’t draw that conclusion. I said S is in the game:

it seems very likely the S can be faster than M5 on Nürburgring and therefore faster than Taycan.

Be careful not to use the track performance of a pre-Raven Model S to set your expectation of how a Raven will perform. You just might be surprised next week...

 

[mongo]

Even if the Model S is quicker around Laguna Seca, you can't then draw the conclusion that it will be quicker around the Ring. "3rd grade math" doesn't work here. Performance on the track over 2.2 miles cannot be extrapolated to performance over 13 miles, especially when comparing ICE to electric. I'll say it again, unless Tesla is bringing a modified car with entirely new brakes, it won't stand a chance.

I'd say you can't extrapolate due to the thermal time constant of the motors and pack. A 4x longer course is going to produce 4x the heat which has been the Achilles' heel of the S (AC induction motor rotor). With Raven front motor, potentially inproved pack cooling, and a cool early/ cool often track mode that problem may be reduced.
Brake fade on an S has not been a major issue as far as I've read, but they could also increase regen to help a little.

 

[daktari]

Laguna Seca has 11 turns while Nordschleife has 73 turns. Looking forward to the videos!
The Taycan prototype had ceramic composite brakes?

 

[ICUDoc]

Wow, looks good with the Laguna Seca data if true that Model S is faster than an M5 around that track!!?
Don't think there is much hard data for extrapolation to the 'ring but it is fun seeing everyone get excited and make lotsa assertions, predictions and outlandish statements. Not many wagers yet, team? Anyone putting their money where their keyboard is?

 

[willow_hiller]

Anyone putting their money where their keyboard is?

I'm actually surprised no online bookies have posted odds yet. Tesla v. Porsche sounds like the race of the century!

 

[mattwhite]

I'd say you can't extrapolate due to the thermal time constant of the motors and pack. A 4x longer course is going to produce 4x the heat which has been the Achilles' heel of the S (AC induction motor rotor). With Raven front motor, potentially inproved pack cooling, and a cool early/ cool often track mode that problem may be reduced.
Brake fade on an S has not been a major issue as far as I've read, but they could also increase regen to help a little.

I didn’t draw that conclusion. I said S is in the game:



Be careful not to use the track performance of a pre-Raven Model S to set your expectation of how a Raven will perform. You just might be surprised next week...

As far as I know, a pre-Raven and post-Raven S share the same brakes. Those brakes are not up to the Ring - see this post: Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week! Porsche has solved this issue for the Taycan by putting massive ceramic rotors (bigger than a Porsche 918, a car that can run sub 7s at the Ring) and ten-piston calipers on it.

The reason more people don't complain about the brakes is that in many cases, the pre-Raven goes into limp mode on track before the brakes give out. Anybody that tracks cars regularly knows that once you improve one area of the car to make it go faster, then other areas will often be stressed that weren't previously. If indeed the Raven's speed on track is materially different than a pre-Raven and it doesn't go into limp mode when driven flat out at the Ring, then the brakes will be further stressed and will give out earlier.

 

[PhantomX]

The BMW M5 (F90) had the 4 door record at Laguna Seca with a time of 1:39.81:

Laguna Seca (post 1988) lap times - FastestLaps.com

The M5’s best time at Nürburgring was 7:38.92:

BMW M5 F90 laptimes, specs, performance data - FastestLaps.com

So S faster than M5 on Laguna Seca.

M5 faster than Taycan on Nürburgring.

Referring to my 3rd grade math rules, it seems very likely the S can be faster than M5 on Nürburgring and therefore faster than Taycan.

So the S is very much in the game here.

Cue all the doubters...

Cadillac CTS-V was slightly faster and is actually the fastest 4 door there for now. Also driven by Randy Pobst, it posted a 1:38.52 at Laguna Seca.

I believe these times by Randy are done as part of Motor Trend annual best driver's car contest. If so, these cars should be purely stock with tires and brakes that are the same as showroom cars.

I would be very impressive to see Model S beating these times in its stock form.

 

[cduzz]

As far as I know, a pre-Raven and post-Raven S share the same brakes. Those brakes are not up to the Ring - see this post: Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week! Porsche has solved this issue for the Taycan by putting massive ceramic rotors (bigger than a Porsche 918, a car that can run sub 7s at the Ring) and ten-piston calipers on it.

The reason more people don't complain about the brakes is that in many cases, the pre-Raven goes into limp mode on track before the brakes give out. Anybody that tracks cars regularly knows that once you improve one area of the car to make it go faster, then other areas will often be stressed that weren't previously. If indeed the Raven's speed on track is materially different than a pre-Raven and it doesn't go into limp mode when driven flat out at the Ring, then the brakes will be further stressed and will give out earlier.

I think you've hit on one of the key reasons why people accuse the ring of ruining a car.

Those enormous brake add cost and weight; making them ceramic adds enormous expense. God knows what you have to do to the suspension to make it function around the ring but off-road racing shocks tend to have external reservoirs and are also enormous / heavy / expensive. All the extra cooling to cope with the added heat loads on the battery probably adds quite a bit of weight.

All this added race gear partially explains why the Taycan is such a porker.

It weighs 5,100 pounds; 100 pounds shy of a 2015 Q7 TDI and 200 more than a cayenne TDI...

If Tesla wants to beat the Taycan around a ring, fine; do it with a race edition S (Short Range Plaid S) or better yet the Roadster.

 

[bxr140]

Laguna Seca has 11 turns while Nordschleife has 73 turns.

Agree. Laguna is also both very short and very slow, with mostly [relatively] mild braking zones. It’s super fun (especially on two wheels, which is way more fun than four ), but not representative of anything close to a world class closed circuit let alone the ring, which is the benchmark for passenger vehicles.

What would be interesting to know is whether Raven was first tuned at Willow/Streets, similar to the 3P. Seems like the logical place to start.

Straying way off topic, anyone know if Hyundai rents our their proving grounds in Mojave? It’s like 2 hours from Hawthorne...

 

[Todd Burch]

As far as I know, a pre-Raven and post-Raven S share the same brakes. Those brakes are not up to the Ring - see this post: Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week!

I get that. What I don't understand is why you think Tesla can’t put those same brakes on a Raven, charge $10k more for a Track Edition, and still beat the time. If sold as a Track Edition, it would still be a production car.

Hell, they could charge $50k more and still come in well under a top spec Taycan.

 

[Todd Burch]

Cadillac CTS-V was slightly faster and is actually the fastest 4 door there for now. Also driven by Randy Pobst, it posted a 1:38.52 at Laguna Seca.

Until yesterday, apparently. Unclear if the time was official.

 

[mattwhite]

I get that. What I don't understand is why you think Tesla can’t put those same brakes on a Raven, charge $10k more for a Track Edition, and still beat the time. If sold as a Track Edition, it would still be a production car.

Hell, they could charge $50k more and still come in well under a top spec Taycan.

So we're talking about a theoretical car that Tesla could build? I'm sure if Tesla decided to build a Taycan competitor they could do so, but right now there's no evidence it exists. And it's not just a matter of slapping giant brakes on an existing design. You've got lots of issues like clearances, cooling, suspension tuning, etc. My point is that a Raven as configured won't beat the Taycan's time at the Ring. If a Raven "Track Edition" is built, I'll look at the specs and decide what I think then.

 

[SteveBaker]

There is no such thing as bad publicity. If the S comes even somewhat close to the Porsche time - it'll be all over the news. The word "TESLA" get pushed up the search results - this is all good news. People buying Tesla don't need to drive faster than a Porsche around a ridiculously difficult race track...but knowing that it would (hypothetically) do it amazingly quickly sells cars. NOT sending a car is considerably worse than sending it and losing the challenge by some reasonable margin.

The only thing Elon Musk needs to be 100% sure of is that the car won't shut down due to overheating before it finishes the lap.

 

[mtndrew1]

This sure is getting curiouser and curiouser.

Musk said they’re going to the ring. Everyone laughed.

Cars showed up at the ring. No time slot. Everyone laughed.

Time slot available next week (magic!).

Raven S doesn’t embarrass itself at Laguna.

Hmm this still seems like a moon shot, but a good ring time might be within the Raven’s grasp.