Next generation 2170 cell battery packs

[Roadrunner13]

Aren't the Superchargers spaced to allow use by cars with a 60 pack? I find it hard to believe that the weather would hit range so much that a 100 pack could not make it when in fair weather a 60 pack could.

Even if that is the case, road trips are the exception rather than the rule for most drivers, so it likely makes more sense to add more superchargers rather than have people haul around extra battery that they don't need 99% of the time. It's cheaper for the vehicle owner, too.

Nope a 100 won't cut it.
We have winter, very cold winter, 30% range hit for long drives, worst if you stop!
We have almost no supercharger, have a look at the map of Canada, coverage is scarce at best and only between some major city...our countrie's capital doesn't even have any. We can not cross our country without detours through the US.
We want to put bikes on top of the car, trailers behind the Xs...
Snowmobiles on trailers in winter! (Ok...not so likely for tree huggers like me, but a valid use case nonetheless)
We want to do round-trip to ski station where there are no destination chargers and no superchargers available which is pretty much all of them around here (...and much, much more likely for me)

Need more?

Yes, batteries larger than 100kwh will find plenty of takers, especially with new lighter cells, we would not be hauling more weight!!

 

[sandpiper]

Aren't the Superchargers spaced to allow use by cars with a 60 pack? I find it hard to believe that the weather would hit range so much that a 100 pack could not make it when in fair weather a 60 pack could.

Even if that is the case, road trips are the exception rather than the rule for most drivers, so it likely makes more sense to add more superchargers rather than have people haul around extra battery that they don't need 99% of the time. It's cheaper for the vehicle owner, too.

Then you've never driven at -25. Highway range on my P85D drops to under 150 miles.

And there are a lot of places that will simply never see superchargers due to low density. Range is the only solution.

 

[artsci]

Then you've never driven at -25. Highway range on my P85D drops to under 150 miles.

And there are a lot of places that will simply never see superchargers due to low density. Range is the only solution.

Just be patient. Range in the cold will soon no longer be an issue. With climate change Canada eventually will be like New Orleans

 

[sandpiper]

Just be patient. Range in the cold will soon no longer be an issue. With climate change Canada eventually will be like New Orleans

True enough. I've never seen a summer/fall like this. Global warming is a bit of mixed blessing up here! While I think of it, I should probably sell the Tesla and buy the biggest honking F350 available and leave it idling in the driveway all night.

 

[Cloxxki]

Then you've never driven at -25. Highway range on my P85D drops to under 150 miles.

And there are a lot of places that will simply never see superchargers due to low density. Range is the only solution.

Actually, insulation is the solution to weather related energy guzzlers. But it would need to be designed to also survive heat.
I am now envisioning an higher resolution aerogel "Luxaflex" shutter. Not cheap, but I think it can be done, especially on SUV's where a higher seating position is expected.
If your house is insultated properly, it takes a candle to keep it warm while you're away. And if you have a pet, no candle is needed. If you're home, in the worst of cold spells, a windows will need to be opened at the roof to syphon off some bouncy particles.

 

[Troy]

Range drop in cold weather happens because of 3 reasons:

• Heating consumes energy.
• Cold air is more dense and increases air resistance.
• Wet or snowy roads increase road friction.

 

[WarpedOne]

Range drop in cold weather happens because of 3 reasons:

• Heating consumes energy.
• Cold air is more dense and increases air resistance.
• Wet or snowy roads increase road friction.

You missed the main one: cold battery has much higher internal resistance, meaning higher losses when 'extracting' stored energy.

 

[mhpr262]

I just hope they can maintain the 100kwh and make the battery MUCH lighter instead - that would also boost range considerably over the range of the current 100kwh battery, and it would do the car and its driving dynamics a world of good. Not to mention the car could be lot cheaper, too. Or allow a higher profit margin. As a stockholder, I'm not sure what I prefer.

 

[freeewilly]

I just hope they can maintain the 100kwh and make the battery MUCH lighter instead - that would also boost range considerably over the range of the current 100kwh battery, and it would do the car and its driving dynamics a world of good. Not to mention the car could be lot cheaper, too. Or allow a higher profit margin. As a stockholder, I'm not sure what I prefer.

Completely agree, instead of increase battery size, I rather Tesla improves the battery and motor efficiency to make the car go further.

 

[sandpiper]

Completely agree, instead of increase battery size, I rather Tesla improves the battery and motor efficiency to make the car go further.

There is very little to be done in terms of improving the efficiency of the electrical drive train. AC induction motors are extremely >90% efficient. And the batteries are likewise. Could they be improved? Yes of course. But there's not a whole heck of a lot that's possible there.

I just hope they can maintain the 100kwh and make the battery MUCH lighter instead - that would also boost range considerably over the range of the current 100kwh battery, and it would do the car and its driving dynamics a world of good. Not to mention the car could be lot cheaper, too. Or allow a higher profit margin. As a stockholder, I'm not sure what I prefer.

The battery will slowly get lighter. But even now, the battery pack is only 1000lbs out of a 5000lb car. And weight is not a huge factor in energy consumption. Aerodynamics is much more significant.

 

[WarpedOne]

But there's not a whole heck of a lot that's possible there.

There is about 1000 posiblle improvements. Every single pound of battery weight loss would be an improvement.

 

[ecarfan]

Completely agree, instead of increase battery size, I rather Tesla improves the battery and motor efficiency to make the car go further.

I am sure that Tesla is aware that there are multiple ways to improve vehicle range other than just increasing the battery "size", and that they are working on all of them.

 

[Cloxxki]

I don't think range will be so much affected by a lighter battery for the same energy capacity. as it stands, the battery is between 1/4 and 1/3 of the car. Dropping 25% or so from that means a 1/16 or 1/12 reduction. And weight really isn't such a big factor unless you're in start-stop traffic or going over mountains. The new S100 will probably consume the same Wh/mi as an S75. Does that drive much more economical than the S90?

The "performance" as English speakers tend to refer to the 0-60mph time, could actually improve measurably from the weight reduction. Which is a scary thought, as the Easter Egg is supposed to make it 2.4x already.

 

[Tony8489]

A lighter 100kW battery puts Model S in a similar range as a tank of gas in most ICE cars. Rather than increasing battery size up to 125 with associated weight and expense, I think Tesla should direct effort to speeding up supercharging time. Once you can charge 50% of battery capacity in 10-15 minutes instead of 30-40, that will go a long way toward luring more ICE drivers to a BEV IMHO.

 

[macpacheco]

I believe Tesla will limit maximum Model S weight. They won't make a huge pack unless they can first improve energy density. I think that's part of what Elon meant when he said 100kWh is as high as we'll go. He really meant, we'll limit max car weight to as heavy as we are right now.
Also, Tesla will look if offering a 150kWh pack might reduce their total output capacity for the Model 3 or PowerPack/PowerWall, for instance.

Finally, I grant everyone that there are cases that are very real and limiting for people that live in very cold neck of the woods situations, but are you even 10% of the worldwide Model S/X sales potential ?
"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
You're a corner case, so your need will be taken care of later.
I think its more likely Tesla will gradually offer 120/140/160 kWh packs, while retiring the soft 60/75 pack and replacing with a soft 75/90 pack.
Eventually having something like soft 75/90/120/140 options.
With exploding PowerPack/PowerWall/M3 production, Tesla will have to be mindful of how much cheap cell supply they have (aka produced by GigaFactory rather than sourced).

 

[scaesare]

With exploding PowerPack/PowerWall/M3 production...

Bad turn of phrase?

 

[bob_p]

Another factor - the larger the battery pack, the longer someone will sit at a supercharger station to get a charge.

If Tesla can reduce charging times down to 5-10 minutes using a 100 battery pack, that's huge - and allow faster turnaround of the supercharging stations, and could help reduce the number of supercharger stations needed.

Continuing to increase the battery pack size would again push up the charging time, and while an individual driver would spend the same amount of time charging on a trip, just at fewer stops, when they did stop, they'd tie up a charger for a longer period, preventing someone else from accessing that charger.

For a number of reasons, it seems to make sense to stop at or around 100 - and use the 2170 batteries (or future newer technologies) to reduce battery costs (and weight).

 

[MP3Mike]

Another factor - the larger the battery pack, the longer someone will sit at a supercharger station to get a charge.

Not necessarily. The first ~80% of the pack charges way faster than the last 20%. So if the larger pack allows someone to get enough range at a lower charge percentage then they can actually charge for a shorter period of time.

 

[Reeler]

I think we are almost certainly going to see a new pack to support the 350KW+ supercharging that EM just tweeted about. Likely to use the new cells. Not sure if it will have more range, but 100KW rechargeable to 80% in less than 15 minutes would get Tesla a bunch more CARB credits. Plus it allows Tesla to compete with the 800V charging that Porsche is touting and the 350KW CSS chargers being rolled out.

With charging so fast and range nearly the same as a performance car in the same class, the need for larger batteries goes away. Who puts an extra gas tank in their car?

 

[scaesare]

With charging so fast and range nearly the same as a performance car in the same class, the need for larger batteries goes away. Who puts an extra gas tank in their car?

Not entirely.

Cold temps can cut a third or more off of range. Towing can cut half or more. Wind or elevation can cut range.

A 300-mile range 100kW car can become a 150 mile car with 1 more of these factors pretty quickly.

Even with a 15 minute charge time, by the time you include pull of highway, get in to stall, charge, and get back to highway (many of the superchargers are not directly adjacent to the highway), you are looking at 30+ minutes. Not something onw wants to do every 2-2.5 hours.

I think there's plenty of reason to hope for larger pack sizes in the future.