Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[jkirkwood001]

...Do you think it is possible that I can tell my delivery specialist (when I get in contact with him/her) that I will be paying with a loan through Tesla and not in cash?

So I'm assuming you need a loan to get the car. If you get a loan elsewhere (e.g. your bank directly), then for all intents and purposes, that's a cash sale to Tesla.

But it's only technically different if you get the loan via Tesla, since the bank pays Tesla the money, so they get full payment up front. Now a lease would NOT be the same, but Tesla doesn;t offer leases (where they get partial payment up front and balance down the road [OK, pun intended ].

So it didn't sound to me like Tesla cared a lot if you loaned or paid cash - but I think it will be something you request, not automatic. In fact, the requisite approval process which they pass to either RBC or Scotia (per my related post) is much less stringent than the one my own bank asked me for. Still can't figure that out, and the "preferential" rate BMO eventually offered me was 2% higher than Tesla / RBC's!

 

[CanadianBacon]

So I'm assuming you need a loan to get the car. If you get a loan elsewhere (e.g. your bank directly), then for all intents and purposes, that's a cash sale to Tesla.

But it's only technically different if you get the loan via Tesla, since the bank pays Tesla the money, so they get full payment up front. Now a lease would NOT be the same, but Tesla doesn;t offer leases (where they get partial payment up front and balance down the road [OK, pun intended ].

So it didn't sound to me like Tesla cared a lot if you loaned or paid cash - but I think it will be something you request, not automatic. In fact, the requisite approval process which they pass to either RBC or Scotia (per my related post) is much less stringent than the one my own bank asked me for. Still can't figure that out, and the "preferential" rate BMO eventually offered me was 2% higher than Tesla / RBC's!

What I plan to do is loan through Tesla. This will occur once I talk to my Delivery Specialist about switching my payment method from cash to loan. Was just wondering if that would be a problem? Not sure how it would be, as Tesla still gets the money.

 

[jkirkwood001]

I totally agree. We as consumers always get the short end of the stick.

Not exactly. It's supply and demand, like many other commodities. The sooner the public moves to EVs, the sooner those gas cartels' demand will decrease and their prices will adjust accordingly. It's our insatiable demand that keeps giving the oil companies profits. (I exclude those who use almost no gas directly or indirectly)

Sign in 2025 "Please buy our gas! On SALE!!"

 

[jkirkwood001]

What I plan to do is loan through Tesla. This will occur once I talk to my Delivery Specialist about switching my payment method from cash to loan. Was just wondering if that would be a problem? Not sure how it would be, as Tesla still gets the money.

Like I say, it should be OK, but you have to go through an approval process. The approval process was extremely quick in my case (2 days from inquiry to approval), but I don't know for sure yours would be equally quick.

 

[CanadianBacon]

Like I say, it should be OK, but you have to go through an approval process. The approval process was extremely quick in my case (2 days from inquiry to approval), but I don't know for sure yours would be equally quick.

Good to hear. And yeah, I've waited enough so a few days shouldn't be too bad xD. I think I already have the Tesla Credit Application ready to go online here. Just gonna wait until I get stuff sorted out with my Delivery Specialist and I will be one step closer to this amazing car!

 

[jkirkwood001]

Adaptabl... this forum is about the impact on consumers who have been UNFAIRLY impacted because of Doug Ford’s personal biases. You arguing here is obviously irrelevant to most of the consumers. So please, my suggestion is to go promote your buddy Ford elsewhere. Thank you!

@Doug_G tell me if I'm out of line, but my $0.02 cents I have to jump in and defend @adaptabl on this thread's posts.

• This thread is not listed as being only for those "who have been UNFAIRLY impacted". It's called "Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018" and that's what adaptable's posts have covered - discussing what and why of the cancellation.
• I interpret their posts as providing a viewpoint on what Ford was trying to do - NOT supporting the action.
• I agree the action benefited Ontario dealers more than potential Tesla buyers. I think Ford is 100% OK with that priority. And it's a government's prerogative to make policy that favours some constituents (virtually every policy favours some disadvantaged group over those with less disadvantage).
• Most importantly - and this applies to the hopes of a policy adjustment - in my opinion, potential Tesla buyers are certainly not all "millionaires", but some are (who knows what the numbers are?? noooobody!) and I highly doubt we are primarily blue-collar, lower income, non-environmentalists, aka. Ford's target constituents, so why would he care?
• This rebate had favoured wealthier new car buyers compared to those who may not be able to afford a new car of any type. I just don't see the general public (or the ombudsman) marching in the streets to save Tesla buyers their rebate. The general public DO march in the streets to fight for climate change, but that's not the same thing. Please don't say @adaptabl and others, who try to interpret Ford's action, as being against global warming, or immediately labelling them as trolls. We aren't (I am buying a Model 3, I have some Tesla stock, and I did NOT vote Conservative).

 

[Doug_G]

I'm mainly concerned with personal attacks on other members.

Discuss the issues.

 

[dusdev]

@Doug_G tell me if I'm out of line, but my $0.02 cents I have to jump in and defend @adaptabl on this thread's posts.

• This thread is not listed as being only for those "who have been UNFAIRLY impacted". It's called "Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018" and that's what adaptable's posts have covered - discussing what and why of the cancellation.
• I interpret their posts as providing a viewpoint on what Ford was trying to do - NOT supporting the action.
• I agree the action benefited Ontario dealers more than potential Tesla buyers. I think Ford is 100% OK with that priority. And it's a government's prerogative to make policy that favours some constituents (virtually every policy favours some disadvantaged group over those with less disadvantage).
• Most importantly - and this applies to the hopes of a policy adjustment - in my opinion, potential Tesla buyers are certainly not all "millionaires", but some are (who knows what the numbers are?? noooobody!) and I highly doubt we are primarily blue-collar, lower income, non-environmentalists, aka. Ford's target constituents, so why would he care?
• This rebate had favoured wealthier new car buyers compared to those who may not be able to afford a new car of any type. I just don't see the general public (or the ombudsman) marching in the streets to save Tesla buyers their rebate. The general public DO march in the streets to fight for climate change, but that's not the same thing. Please don't say @adaptabl and others, who try to interpret Ford's action, as being against global warming, or immediately labelling them as trolls. We aren't (I am buying a Model 3, I have some Tesla stock, and I did NOT vote Conservative).

The point of the incentive is to help accelerate mass adoption. There is no doubt in my mind that mass adoption will occur. The question is when, not if. The sooner the better. The incentive accelerates the adoption because it helps to bring the cost of an EV closer to that of a comparable ICE car.

The reason ICE cars are cheaper is simply the scale of production. EV cars will drop in price as adoption increases. It's a classic market lock out issue and government intervention is always required to undo market lock out. Otherwise we'd have special interests and big business dictating the entire market (effectively it's a form of collusion which is bad for consumers and good for the company's bottom lines).

Unfortunately the optics are 'bad' since the absolute dollar amount is high. As a percentage, $14k on $70k is actually not that high (20%).

Also, let me correct one point here since it's important. You said: "This rebate had favoured wealthier new car buyers ". This is an absolute lie. Rebate's don't favour wealthier. Whether you have $1 in assets, or $1M in assets, the rebate was still $14k. In fact, one could argue that the rebate assisted less wealthy buyers, because as a percentage of their buying power the rebate would have a much bigger impact.

 

[vnanthacumar]

Council members are screaming over seat cuts that Rob Ford proposed. What about our EV rebate? No one give a sh*t. We are only the common people that pay the taxes :-(

Ontario government to dramatically cut Toronto city council size ahead of upcoming election

 

[felixculpas]

 

[jkirkwood001]

...Also, let me correct one point here since it's important. You said: "This rebate had favoured wealthier new car buyers ". This is an absolute lie. Rebate's don't favour wealthier. Whether you have $1 in assets, or $1M in assets, the rebate was still $14k. In fact, one could argue that the rebate assisted less wealthy buyers, because as a percentage of their buying power the rebate would have a much bigger impact.

You make good points, @dusdev.

re your last item, I'd agree IF those lower income folks were going to buy an ICE, but we don't know that. In fact, our own poll indicated that almost 60% of prospective Tesla buyers did or would likely proceed to buy an EV even after the policy was cancelled. So that supports that the EV rebate was actually paying more people who would buy an EV regardless of incentive, than those who would not without the rebate.

Put another way, you're asking the person making $40,000 / year (many of whom recycle and use public transit etc.) to donate some of their taxes towards people who would buy an EV regardless. You can say that's the exception, but I don't think you can argue that lower income taxpayers should feel sorry for Tesla buyers.

Again, I agree the way the Ford government cancelled the policy and targeted Tesla buyers the most was crummy. But I don't think we can expect people to believe this is a grave injustice.

(Hmm, thought: perhaps a progressive EV tax rebate on our tax returns, just like OAS is clawed back from high income earners...? That would address all our interests and concerns.)

 

[vnanthacumar]

Maybe we can have some of the weed taxes to pay for our EV rebate

 

[Burlburt]

Council members are screaming over seat cuts that Rob Ford proposed. What about our EV rebate? No one give a sh*t. We are only the common people that pay the taxes :-(

Ontario government to dramatically cut Toronto city council size ahead of upcoming election

Everyone should take this social media opportunity to keep this issue in the public eye. No consultation, no notice, not treating everyone equally. People need to know

 

[Jimmytofu]

Got this from the Ombudsman:

I just wanted to briefly follow up on our phone call on July 24, 2018. Our office learned that the Provincial government is consolidating complaints about cancelling the EHVIP program in the following email: [email protected]. Feel free to raise your concerns to this address.

 

[dusdev]

You make good points, @dusdev.

re your last item, I'd agree IF those lower income folks were going to buy an ICE, but we don't know that. In fact, our own poll indicated that almost 60% of prospective Tesla buyers did or would likely proceed to buy an EV even after the policy was cancelled. So that supports that the EV rebate was actually paying more people who would buy an EV regardless of incentive, than those who would not without the rebate.

I'm not sure I get your point here. Taken another way the survey says that 40% of people who were going to buy a Tesla will no longer do so without the rebate. We don't know if those people are 'wealthy' or not. 40% is actually quite significant. And it goes to my point that lack of incentive will definitely slow down EV adoption in Ontario. Regardless of the wealthy or not argument and regardless of the fairness or not argument... EV sales will slow down, and that is not a good thing. I don't think anyone can argue that slower adoption of EV is a good thing, can they?

From my personal perspective, I look at a Model 3 and I see a $50k car. The asking price is $70k. I understand the cost is higher because the volumes are not there yet. I can't be alone in my assessment. Whether or not I happen to have $20k in my pocket to 'overpay' for this car is a moot point. In aggregate the majority of people will not and hence less cars will be sold.

 

[Jimmytofu]

The Ombudsman contacted me just now - took down the details of my complaint and said they were planning to speak with the MTO today. Said they would have an answer for me by EOW.

They specifically asked if I wanted a refund of my deposit or the rebate for my car once received. Wonder what everyone else was saying.

When i spoke to them I said I just wanted the rebate as i'm going to buy the car regardless. He said that was the impression he was getting from everyone else he spoke to.

 

[jkirkwood001]

I'm not sure I get your point here. Taken another way the survey says that 40% of people who were going to buy a Tesla will no longer do so without the rebate. We don't know if those people are 'wealthy' or not. 40% is actually quite significant. And it goes to my point that lack of incentive will definitely slow down EV adoption in Ontario. Regardless of the wealthy or not argument and regardless of the fairness or not argument... EV sales will slow down, and that is not a good thing. I don't think anyone can argue that slower adoption of EV is a good thing, can they?

From my personal perspective, I look at a Model 3 and I see a $50k car. The asking price is $70k. I understand the cost is higher because the volumes are not there yet. I can't be alone in my assessment. Whether or not I happen to have $20k in my pocket to 'overpay' for this car is a moot point. In aggregate the majority of people will not and hence less cars will be sold.

I agree with you, but I doubt most (Ford) voters would. Most would say - again, not me - "cut my taxes even if it means we don't address global warming". That's why he got elected. Let's not debate IF it's right, it's just where we are democratically this year. We can't debate if Ontarians should vote against the cap and trade and the associated rebate. They just did.

I guess what I'm having a problem with is the expectation on this forum that if the general public knew about our issue, they'd feel outraged. I don't believe most would. Would I like us to eventually outlaw ICEs and redirect Ontario towards a progressive and environmentally-sound economic policy? Absolutely. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about if the Ontario government should reverse a policy that they just implemented so that Tesla buyers - ~60% of whom will reduce their carbon footprint regardless - to be paid tax dollars for their purchase.

 

[Ludatik]

As you can see from the many previous posts many of us have expressed our concerns about the EHVIP cancellation to the Ombudsman of Ontario. They welcome anyone who would like to contact them about the issue as they have opened a case file and escalated the issue because of the urgency.
I had a lengthy discussion with them today and they sent me this email:

“We have asked the following questions of the Ministry of Transportation”

a) Are you aware that customers who ordered Tesla vehicles before July 11, 2018 became ineligible for the EHVIP rebate as at July 11, 2018, unless they had received delivery (plus registration and plating) by that date; whereas customers who purchased non-Tesla vehicles from dealerships have until September 10, 2018 to receive delivery (plus registration and plating) to receive the rebate?

b) What is the rationale for the two different dates that apply i.e. July 11, 2018 for Tesla purchasers and September 10, 2018 for non-Tesla purchasers?

c) Is the Ministry considering measures to ensure that all purchasers of eligible vehicles under the now cancelled EHVIP Program are treated equally?

The MTO have further advised that individual complainants can escalate their concerns to [email protected] which will be monitored by the MTO for a coordinated response.

Thanks for documenting this. When I spoke to the Ombudsman yesterday (July 26) at 3pm, they mentioned a 4th question, asking the Ministry if they were aware that Tesla operates car dealerships in Ontario. I’m paraphrasing here but you get the gist of what they were asking.

 

[jkirkwood001]

...From my personal perspective, I look at a Model 3 and I see a $50k car. The asking price is $70k. I understand the cost is higher because the volumes are not there yet. I can't be alone in my assessment. Whether or not I happen to have $20k in my pocket to 'overpay' for this car is a moot point. In aggregate the majority of people will not and hence less cars will be sold.

And you're not alone in your assessment - I truly sympathize, @dusdev, I wish there was a more affordable EV for all of us - but I hate to say it: you're in the minority. So by all means, those 40% affected can and should fight for recognition. I hope we can sway Ontario towards better environmental policies. My suggestion (put at the bottom of my post) is for a progressive tax based on income, so it's a fairer use of tax dollars while still promoting widespread EV adoption.

 

[Burlburt]

I cancelled this morning