It's the US's fault for trying to avoid paying taxes buy changing the size of a gallon
:runs and hides:
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It's the US's fault for trying to avoid paying taxes buy changing the size of a gallon
:runs and hides:Just because you are willing to fold up like a wet paper bag on the intentional misleading HP rating doesn't mean others will. Even your prized 0-60 rating is FALSE and PHONEY. It's not from ZERO!
Hey, I thought Canadians were legally required to be polite? I'd rather not have to report you to Avril Lavigne.
I've been reading the automotive rags for years. They almost all use 1 foot roll out for 0-60 and have for years, Edmunds' comments notwithstanding. So all those times you seen for 911's, RS7's, Lambo's, Vette's, Ferrari's, Mustangs, Camaro's, etc. have all been measured the same way. I don't know why Tesla didn't use that standard before but they would be the anomaly in this case.
Sorry, NO. The issue IS with Tesla. They are publishing PHONY HP ratings. A motors potential capability is not how cars are sold. An ICE may have a potential 1000 HPbut no manufacturer advertises this way.
They all do because it takes an extremely narrow set of circumstances to achieve rated hp on a dyno with other manufacturers.
Everyone who doesn't live near sea level (which is the vast majority of all consumers), for example, undergo this "falsity".
EVs have no standardized way to determine horsepower. If you look at motor KW output v. horsepower on other EV manufacturers, you'll see that each and every one will not correlate in the same manner.
Just like with the limitations of the ICE horsepower measurement, manufacturers are not responsible for consumer ignorance in not understanding how the technology works.
The 0-60 speed, however, is still 100% accurate with US standardized measurements. All US magazines that follow standard US measurements are in agreement.
What about them?
http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/models
"Zero to 100 kph in as little as 3.0 seconds"
That's not matching up to a 0-62ish time on a US test. It's still not as fast as the testing results you're looking for, but it's still a very realistic number to pull off on a P90DL. (Given what I read about Euro emissions testing procedures and methodology, I imagine Tesla has a huge amount of legal headroom in creating an ideal test--like other car manufacturers).
Anyways, bottom line is if you care about performance on a car, use an actual real-world measurement using a standard/scale/test that you find acceptable. Horsepower is as meaningless as hamsterpower, as someone mentioned, because a dozen factors impact 0-60 time. If you put 2000 horsepower on a car, but it weighed 40,000 pounds, that car isn't going to be fast at all. As with anything in life it's very important to understand units of measurement, and testing methodology.
Let's take another issue. How do you think US drivers felt about the Nissan Leaf, as Nissan was using Japanese test cycle numbers for their initial advertisements? There were a lot of angry Leaf buyers. It's not Nissan's fault that Japan's test scale is horribly inaccurate, and it's not Nissan's fault that some buyers didn't do the research, or were willing to be an early adopter on a relatively untested vehicle.
Road & Track published a completely faulty "estimated" acceleration and torque curve, so is that Tesla's fault too? That curve makes it look like they actually tested the car when they didn't. Can you tell me why other EV manufacturers also advertise motor power, yet that's okay for them but not Tesla?
Honest question as I dont know the answer: does any of those other manufacturers have battery limitations making the advertised motor power HP unreachable in the real world?
The EVs I know about, and I actually own a VW e-up! as well as a P85D, have no such limitations... I am fairly certain the same goes for the Leaf, I3 etc etc...
scott jones
Member
A couple of points here: some continue to say horsepower claims by tesla dont matter but for many reasons it does.
and I won't repeat all of those.
The ONE no one can disagree on is the fact that car is listed at 700 hp by insurance companies and you pay for that.
Paying for a 700 hp car that only delivers 550 on the road is wrong. Would you want to pay taxes on a 5000 square-foot house thats only 3000 ft.²???
two: some here claim it is not teslas responsibility to correct media that said 691 hp versus 691 motor power.
Tesla can't have it both ways because they HAVE corrected media many times that have given negative reports that are incorrect.
they've even pointed out the ratio of car fires in teslas versus ice vehicles as they should and the media wasn't even wrong on that they just didn't include all the information. Do you see my point. You can't stand by and do nothing to correct positive misinformation while you are proactive in correcting negative misinformation.
also some of the attacks on Andy have been a bit much yet he's remained mature in his response.
and I won't repeat all of those.
The ONE no one can disagree on is the fact that car is listed at 700 hp by insurance companies and you pay for that.
Paying for a 700 hp car that only delivers 550 on the road is wrong. Would you want to pay taxes on a 5000 square-foot house thats only 3000 ft.²???
two: some here claim it is not teslas responsibility to correct media that said 691 hp versus 691 motor power.
Tesla can't have it both ways because they HAVE corrected media many times that have given negative reports that are incorrect.
they've even pointed out the ratio of car fires in teslas versus ice vehicles as they should and the media wasn't even wrong on that they just didn't include all the information. Do you see my point. You can't stand by and do nothing to correct positive misinformation while you are proactive in correcting negative misinformation.
also some of the attacks on Andy have been a bit much yet he's remained mature in his response.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
That is a fantastic point about the horsepower as it relates to our insurance costs. In the many hundreds of posts I have read now on this issue (actually it could be in the thousands) I don't think I've seen anyone raise that issue before! That is really significant!
Thanks too for the personal support!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
From what I see so far in the EU it depends on certificate of conformity (CoC) and for EVs that is supposed to be based on motor power as Tesla measures it (ECE R85), so ~700hp is actually the correct measure there.
I'm not sure how the US one is for EVs, but I know for ICE cars the certificate of origin uses some kind of formula that was based on displacement and bore/stroke ratio and is not the same as the advertised SAE numbers. This number is used for tax purposes in many states.
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-this-found-on-statement-of-origin-sheet.html
The Certificate of Origin for the Tesla P85D actually says 738 hp:
http://my.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/horsepower-listed-title-p85d
EU CoC says 350kW rear, 193 kW front. This would be 543 kW total. 543kW is 738 metric hp (728 british hp). So it seems they just took the European numbers and converted it to metric horsepower.
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Who cares about the appeal to other auto makers. I bought a very expensive high performance Tesla based on intentionally advertised specs. To advertise the potential HP of a motor when there is no way it can deliver the rating is PHONY period. Perhaps an 550 HP ICE can hypothetically produce 1000 HP or some HP more than the actual true HP by adding a blower or other performance add ons but this but is not what I am buying or being sold on. This is what Tesla is doing with motor HP. The motor needs enhancements in order to deliver this rating and flat out cannot deliver without those enhancements.
This is intentionally flat out misleading. Many Magazines clearly took the intended advertised HP ratings and packaged it interesting ways and ran with it based on the specs Tesla provided.
+1 Although the motors themselves don't need any enhancements to deliver their maximum power at the motors shafts. They just need a power supply capable of delivering the power.
Jallum.pa.us
Member
Exactly.
The way I see it, all the talk about the motors is really missing the point: the parts that aren't allowing the motors to reach their rated levels of output (and thereby preventing the car as a whole from reaching the spec'd performance, for however brief a time) are the 1300A fuse and contactors. My issue is with those two parts, and in a perfect world they'd be covered as defective (under spec'd) by the warranty, not sold to me at a hefty markup as an upgrade.
(I still love my car.)
The way I see it, all the talk about the motors is really missing the point: the parts that aren't allowing the motors to reach their rated levels of output (and thereby preventing the car as a whole from reaching the spec'd performance, for however brief a time) are the 1300A fuse and contactors. My issue is with those two parts, and in a perfect world they'd be covered as defective (under spec'd) by the warranty, not sold to me at a hefty markup as an upgrade.
(I still love my car.)
I find your comments very reasonable. While expecting a totally free upgrade of the fuses and contactors, namely the "Ludicrous" upgrade, from Tesla is a bit unrealistic, I do believe we P85D owners should be given a much deeper discount for that upgrade. Stating the 691 "motor HP", perhaps considered legal, is not the best practice, and there is no deny it's misleading.
Jallum.pa.us
Member
Really? That's the only acceptable form of recourse? I'm not really that guy. More likely that I'll just never again be the first to buy one of their products. ("Fool me twice," and whatnot.)
To me it is completely irrelevant if it is 100 or 1,000 HP. What counts it is how fast the car goes, and that is completely fulfilled by my P85D. I remember many years ago test-driving a V6 Camry that was advertised at 290 HP, yet it worked like an asthmatic horse compared to the 200HP Audi we ended up leasing.
Jaff
Active Member
You indeed bought very expensive high performance Tesla based on advertised specs. As is abundantly clear now car's performance and power match these specs. I am sympathetic with the fact that you misunderstood the specifications, but stating that this is "intentionally flat out misleading" is not supported by facts.
Let's get real here, the value of the Tesla performance upgrade (from 85D to P85D) is outstanding. Similar performance upgrade from Audi (from S7 to RS7) will cost you 30% more in US, and up to multiples of Tesla cost in other countries.
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