Phantom Braking

[Knightshade]

False - I haven’t reviewed every other brand of car but our Subaru Forester has no such warning.

Yes, it does.

Guess you've never read THAT manual either huh?

https://cdn.subarunet.com/stis/doc/ownerManual/MSA5M2113A_STIS.pdf

The Pre-Collision Braking System may activate in the following situations.
Therefore concentrate on safe driving.
- Passing through an automatic gate (opening and shutting)
- Driving close to the vehicle in front
- Driving in a location where the grade of the road changes rapidly...
- There is an obstacle on a curve or intersection.
- A vehicle or an object is being narrowly passed.

PCS offers the SAME warnings as Tesla about when it might brake without need.


And their adaptive cruise?

Adaptive Cruise Control is designed for use on expressways, freeways, toll
roads, interstate highways and similar limited access roads. It is not intended
to be used in city traffic

Huh... that's actually MORE restrictive than Teslas warnings!

It actually goes on to list like a DOZEN more conditions and places where it might not work properly like....any place brightness changes (tunnels, overpasses, etc).... or hills... or sharp or winding roads.... or ordinary roads other than highways (it literally says ordinary roads on page 45) and more.

Beyond the warnings, I care about the level of function and accuracy.
See below.

Accuracy seems pretty far from a concern given how little your posts have had. See below indeed.

Again, false. I’ve driven several other cars with adaptive cruise control and had exactly zero problems with phantom braking. Zero. nada. Zilch. Null. Nothing. 1/∞.

You have confused "personal anecdote" with "facts and data"

A common error I know.



Here's Subaru owners who had phantom braking

Hard ghost braking in turn at 75 mph

www.subaruoutback.org

Was on the interstate going 75 mph, getting ready to pass a big rig on a left curve. As we're going into the curve with the big rig just ahead of us, the car brakes hard! Car behind us almost hits us

this is the scariest feature of the car to me.

Eyesight collision avoidance. From your description, the cameras thought you were driving right into the side of the truck. I've had a similar thing happen when a slower truck changed lanes in my direction.

Same thing could happen going round a steep curve with a wall right next to the road.

Then we get one guy saying it's always worked fine for him- what are you talking about?

That you?

Anyway after him others also report having the same phantom braking issues-

This happened on a Kansas interstate with a posted speed limit of 75

smoke from cars or trucks sometimes triggers the eye-sight as potential collision, it happened to me.

If you don't pull over early enough it will hit the brakes even if you are changing lanes until it determines the lane is clear. I notice this frequently

This was all on ONE page of ONE thread in a Subaru forum.



So your claim it doesn't happen to Subarus is explicitly false

Just like your previous claim the manual had no warnings about it.

I do expect performance comparable to other cars on the market.

Tesla delivers performance and capabilities significantly better than other cars on the market.

CR tested over a dozen systems. Tesla scored higher than all of them on those measures.

Subaru does make it in the top half of systems at least

 

[qdeathstar]

Yes, it does.

Guess you've never read THAT manual either huh?

https://cdn.subarunet.com/stis/doc/ownerManual/MSA5M2113A_STIS.pdf

PCS offers the SAME warnings as Tesla about when it might brake without need.


And their adaptive cruise?




Huh... that's actually MORE restrictive than Teslas warnings!

It actually goes on to list like a DOZEN more conditions and places where it might not work properly like....any place brightness changes (tunnels, overpasses, etc).... or hills... or sharp or winding roads.... or ordinary roads other than highways (it literally says ordinary roads on page 45) and more.





Accuracy seems pretty far from a concern given how little your posts have had. See below indeed.






You have confused "personal anecdote" with "facts and data"

A common error I know.



Here's Subaru owners who had phantom braking

Hard ghost braking in turn at 75 mph

www.subaruoutback.org

Then we get one guy saying it's always worked fine for him- what are you talking about?

That you?

Anyway after him others also report having the same phantom braking issues-








This was all on ONE page of ONE thread in a Subaru forum.



So your claim it doesn't happen to Subarus is explicitly false

Just like your previous claim the manual had no warnings about it.





Tesla delivers performance and capabilities significantly better than other cars on the market.

CR tested over a dozen systems. Tesla scored higher than all of them on those measures.

Subaru does make it in the top half of systems at least


View attachment 766325

/thread

 

[SalisburySam]

Agreed - it depends on how you define 'slams.' The brakes don't lock up but it's hard enough that everyone in the car lurches forward and passengers exclaim something to the effect of "jeez! what was that?"

Your passengers are considerably more genteel than mine. I typically get long, mostly mono-syllabic yet easily-understood verbal bursts about the vehicle’s heritage, the intellectual capacity of the designers, the limited abilities of the engineers, anti-social behaviors of the builders, and overarching comments regarding the ancestry of everyone involved. Several four-, ten- and twelve-letter words get interspersed repeatedly for clarity and effect. The length of these tirades along with their volume increase at the next incident. Yeah, I don’t use TACC with passengers.

 

[AndreP]

We really don't need to pull up forum posts from 2016 to prove that phantom braking exists or existed almost six years ago, just look up the models on the NHTSA website for recent data points.

The recent Subaru Forester models don't seem to have much for phantom braking complaints, but I don't know how many of those sell in the US

 

[SalisburySam]

Watching people in this thread day you shouldn't use cruise control unless it's interstate is the most cringe fanboy crap imaginable.

This was not a serious problem when Teslas had radar and now it is.

Trying to downplay it is ridiculous

Actually, it was as much of a problem with radar as without. Elon said eliminating the radar would eliminate the phantom braking. We know how that turned out. My June 2018 radar car exhibited phantom braking at birth, and on every one of its 87 software updates since. Service center reports the system is operating normally, cameras are OK, yatta, yatta, Bob’s your uncle.

 

[SalisburySam]

They're making it vision-only and powered by artificial intelligence. It might work worse right now, but one day it will work much better than Toyota's ever will.

Great, that’s both encouraging and terrific news! But alas until that “…one day…,” I still have to drive my car and live with that “…work worse right now…” situation and frankly don’t like it.

 

[Knightshade]

We really don't need to pull up forum posts from 2016 to prove that phantom braking exists or existed almost six years ago, just look up the models on the NHTSA website for recent data points.

The recent Subaru Forester models don't seem to have much for phantom braking complaints, but I don't know how many of those sell in the US

FWIW the Subaru owners manual I was quoting from was for the 2021 model year.

The forum link was older, but only because it was the first google result-- the same warnings the other guy claimed Subaru didn't have were in the manual then as they are now.


In fact it appears some folks are looking for more examples for a class action against Subaru listing vehicles up through 2021.

Subaru EyeSight: Did You Have Problems with Automatic Braking?

Attorneys are investigating whether a class action can be filed following complaints that Subaru’s EyeSight system can detect obstacles that don’t exist, causing unexpected braking. Learn more.

www.classaction.org

and sounds like it's not the first

Subaru Is Hit With Another Lawsuit- Owners Say EyeSight Is Dangerous

A new lawsuit had been filed against Subaru. 2021 Subaru Forester, Outback, and Crosstrek, and other models are included. See why owners say the automaker's EyeSight safety technology is dangerous.

www.torquenews.com

If you want specific owner complaints from 2021 those are also easy to find, for example:

Automatic Emergency Braking Problems of the 2021 Subaru Outback

Details of the automatic emergency braking problems of the 2021 Subaru Outback.

www.carproblemzoo.com

My foot was still on the gas trying to accelerate when this happened. All of the lights that show on the windshield seemed to light up red, and it showed that the pre collision braking had engaged on the dashboard screen behind the steering wheel. The car came to an immediate stop in the middle of the road and would not move forward.

and

On 3 occasions the eyesight automatic braking activated with no apparent reason. The first was at highway speeds, second at 45mph and the third at about 30/35mph.

and

Automatic braking system activated abruptly and forcefully when a vehicle in the adjacent lane slowed down to make a turn. This has occurred numerous time both on the highway and in city driving.

and

The contact owns a 2021 Subaru Outback. The contact stated that while driving 60 mph, the brakes engaged inadvertently.

But you know- ONE dude on here had it work well, so must be perfect.

 

[Bouba]

Excuse my ignorance...but does anyone know definitively....has the radar been turned off in my car?

 

[Knightshade]

Excuse my ignorance...but does anyone know definitively....has the radar been turned off in my car?

It has not.

The only cars that physically have radar but do not use it are those in the FSDBeta program, which only includes about 60k total vehicles in North America presently.

 

[JohnB007]

Great, that’s both encouraging and terrific news! But alas until that “…one day…,” I still have to drive my car and live with that “…work worse right now…” situation and frankly don’t like it.

This still sounds better than "no solution forever"...

 

[Paul-)]

Phantom Braking is real and out of control.
Last week driving down interstate TACC on. Nothing near me. Relaxed happy enjoying the car…….WHAM!
it slammed on the damn brakes so hard my wife and I were pushed into our Inertial reel locked seated belts so hard my hands came off the steering wheel and our heads were thrown forward. Almost instantly the brakes released, the car surges forward and out heads are flung back. A nerve was pinched in my neck during that whiplash and now my right shoulder muscle has been tensed up for days.
Absolute bullsh!t.

guess what? It happened again today.
This crap system needs to be fixed, auto braking disabled, or pulled off the market.
How can ANYBODY think this is OK?

Teslas are braking in response to imagined road obstacles

The phenomenon is called "phantom braking," and it's been an issue since October.

www.protocol.com

Totally agre. Why aren't more people registering this problem???
I experience PB with TACC all the time. It pretty much makes it unusable ... on a decent car, it's absolutely attrocious.

 

[AndreP]

Paul-) in another Phantom Braking thread just brought up the vehicle cost angle that I think would be worth considering here as a factor influencing people's expectations -- a new Model Y is double the price of a new Subaru Forester equipped with EyeSight and it's probably about the same for something like a Nissan Rogue.

Tesla vehicles in general are very expensive and the company is regarded as much for its tech as its cars, and all that could be feeding into people's standards.

 

[Xdama]

Totally agre. Why aren't more people registering this problem???
I experience PB with TACC all the time. It pretty much makes it unusable ... on a decent car, it's absolutely attrocious.

I don’t use TACC at all, just not a fan of drive up behind ppl and brake which is what any adaptive cruise is. I’ve always watched traffic well ahead & eased off the accelerator or cancelled dumb cruise and let momentum die off gives a smoother more economical drive imo. The few times I have tried it PB has occurred which didn’t exactly make me want to use it any further

 

[DayTrippin]

Anecdotally, I have had a lot more problems with PB in some states than others. Maybe TACC recognizes some trees/bridges and not others. ;-)

While joking, I am serious at the same time. I had the most PB events (as a percentage of miles driven recently) in Mississippi and Alabama. I've driven the most miles in Florida, then Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. When I first got my car it is when they went to TeslaVision only. It was horrendous to put it mildly.

Compared to other cars with adaptive cruise, I had never experienced PB like Tesla could give it to you for the first few months. Sometimes the updates made it worse rather than better. I gave up totally using AP because I had to deal with the horrendous TACC implementation. My wife basically had me promise when I got in the car that I wouldn't turn on the cruise control while she was riding with me.

I really felt I got cheated with the car. A big portion of buying a Tesla was to use AP and maybe invest in Fool Self Driving. Little did I know what was in store for us. At least on my last trip to E. Texas and back, it did pretty well. One minor slowdown from 75 to about 70 and then back up to speed. I have no idea what spooked it but it was pretty good for about 3 hours of driving in total.

I have the car up for sale and I finally won't feel guilty if someone buys it and wants to use TACC/AP. Before I felt like I'd need to sell it with a disclaimer. While it still isn't totally ready for primetime, I finally could live with it a lot better at how it is working now. At least over the last 30 hours or so I've been driving the car. About 3 months ago I was ready to sell the Y just because of how bad PB was.

I am waiting to see how our Model S is. I bought it to take longer trips in and TACC/AP are an important part of that.

 

[sleepydoc]

Yes, it does.

Guess you've never read THAT manual either huh?

https://cdn.subarunet.com/stis/doc/ownerManual/MSA5M2113A_STIS.pdf

PCS offers the SAME warnings as Tesla about when it might brake without need.

And their adaptive cruise?

Huh... that's actually MORE restrictive than Teslas warnings!

It actually goes on to list like a DOZEN more conditions and places where it might not work properly like....any place brightness changes (tunnels, overpasses, etc).... or hills... or sharp or winding roads.... or ordinary roads other than highways (it literally says ordinary roads on page 45) and more.

Accuracy seems pretty far from a concern given how little your posts have had. See below indeed.

You have confused "personal anecdote" with "facts and data"

A common error I know.

Here's Subaru owners who had phantom braking

Hard ghost braking in turn at 75 mph

www.subaruoutback.org

Then we get one guy saying it's always worked fine for him- what are you talking about?

That you?

Anyway after him others also report having the same phantom braking issues-


This was all on ONE page of ONE thread in a Subaru forum.

So your claim it doesn't happen to Subarus is explicitly false

Just like your previous claim the manual had no warnings about it.

Tesla delivers performance and capabilities significantly better than other cars on the market.

CR tested over a dozen systems. Tesla scored higher than all of them on those measures.

Subaru does make it in the top half of systems at least

FWIW the Subaru owners manual I was quoting from was for the 2021 model year.

The forum link was older, but only because it was the first google result-- the same warnings the other guy claimed Subaru didn't have were in the manual then as they are now.


In fact it appears some folks are looking for more examples for a class action against Subaru listing vehicles up through 2021.

Subaru EyeSight: Did You Have Problems with Automatic Braking?

Attorneys are investigating whether a class action can be filed following complaints that Subaru’s EyeSight system can detect obstacles that don’t exist, causing unexpected braking. Learn more.

www.classaction.org

and sounds like it's not the first

Subaru Is Hit With Another Lawsuit- Owners Say EyeSight Is Dangerous

A new lawsuit had been filed against Subaru. 2021 Subaru Forester, Outback, and Crosstrek, and other models are included. See why owners say the automaker's EyeSight safety technology is dangerous.

www.torquenews.com

If you want specific owner complaints from 2021 those are also easy to find, for example:

Automatic Emergency Braking Problems of the 2021 Subaru Outback

Details of the automatic emergency braking problems of the 2021 Subaru Outback.

www.carproblemzoo.com

and

andand
But you know- ONE dude on here had it work well, so must be perfect.

TLDR

I did read the manual (2020, the model of our Forester) - nowhere in the Subaru manual did it say 'the system may brake unexpectedly [for no reason]' It did give multiple specific occasions. (Also, I don't count braking for a car in my lane a fail - that's intended/expected behavior')

I interpreted the notice in the Tesla manual to mean "TACC may [randomly] brake [for no reason]" Re-reading it, one could also interpret it to mean something similar to what was printed in the Subaru manual, just much less verbosely.

Regardless, I base my opinion of the Subaru adaptive cruise on a year of owning and driving it with zero issues. I can't even drive my Tesla 20 minutes without having it slow down unnecessarily. I don't doubt that the Subaru system will have occasional mistakes but they are incredibly rare - several orders of magnitude less frequent, IME. Oh, and I would count stopping for a cloud of smoke as inappropriate behavior. If you or the car can't see then plowing straight ahead is hardly safe. (No one is complaining about Tesla's doing this either.) Compare that to my MY - straight highway. Clear day. Clear lines. No Cars. Randomly slows down by 2-10 MPH then speeds back up again. Repeats this behavior about every 10-15 minutes. Are you seriously tying to say that that is 'expected?''

Subaru also gives you the option to turn of adaptive cruise and just have 'dumb' cruise. Tesla doesn't. in fact, there are times when you can't even turn on cruise control.

Finally, the consumer reports graph you posted compared autopilot capabilities, not cruise control and is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

It's truly baffling to see people try time and again to defend such a poorly performing system. Everyone touts Tesla's technology, if they can't improve on what's already out there they're just spending more money to do less. Like @AndreP pointed out - Tesla's are high end cars costing $50-100k. I expect more from my $60 model than I do from a $22k Honda Civic.

 

[2101Guy]

Paul-) in another Phantom Braking thread just brought up the vehicle cost angle that I think would be worth considering here as a factor influencing people's expectations -- a new Model Y is double the price of a new Subaru Forester equipped with EyeSight and it's probably about the same for something like a Nissan Rogue.

Tesla vehicles in general are very expensive and the company is regarded as much for its tech as its cars, and all that could be feeding into people's standards.

Not just the cost..but how each CEO handles things. There is only one CEO that has a Looooong history of telling repeated and constant falsehoods about their driving assist product. Sets unrealistic expectations, which then feed peoples expectations...and when that CEO fails to deliver time and time again, his word starts to mean nothing. And he becomes the subject of internet memes and is given nicknames ie "the boy who cried autonomy"

 

[rjpjnk]

Tesla's are high end cars costing $50-100k. I expect more from my $60 model than I do from a $22k Honda Civic.

It’s not expensive because it’s better, or high end. It’s expensive because it’s got a 25k battery instead of a 5k engine.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

We really don't need to pull up forum posts from 2016 to prove that phantom braking exists or existed almost six years ago, just look up the models on the NHTSA website for recent data points.

The recent Subaru Forester models don't seem to have much for phantom braking complaints, but I don't know how many of those sell in the US

I take it you haven't been to the PNW?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

One thing to keep in mind with phantom braking is none of this is AEB braking.

There have been companies like Nissan who had to do recalls because of false AEB braking. False AEB braking is a significant safety issue.

I've never had a false AEB braking in either Tesla I've had even during that "fun" time with 10.3 where it got a recalled for AEB braking.

The only false AEB event I've ever experienced was one time with my Jeep Wrangler when going down a ramp to garage parking where it appeared like I was going to hit a wall as it was a fairly steep ramp.

That freaked the hell out of it, and it slammed on the breaks. I was only going 15 or so. I didn't submit a complaint it seemed realistic for it to get fooled in that moment.

The average Tesla phantom braking event is a nuisance event.

It's almost like Elon is out to end all marriages.

 

[enemji]

Tesla's are high end cars costing $50-100k. I expect more from my $60 model than I do from a $22k Honda Civic.

I still remember the time when simple weatherstripping on a Lamborghini was worse than a corolla. It has been a while I have paid attention to either of these model. Are they any closer?