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Canuck
Well-Known Member
How do you know? I would agree with you if it's a private residence but I own an office building and if I don't want people to use the exterior outlets I turn them off at the breaker. Otherwise, it is expected the public will use them and no cop would write up report if someone plugged in (they wouldn't even come out if I called it in), let alone have a prosecutor press those charges if it was referred to him/her by the police. I can see them laughing now around the prosecutor's office. Hey Jim, look at this -- someone plugged their Tesla in at a mall and the mall wants theft charges and the cop agreed! This guy has no criminal record, is a model citizen, and they want me to drag him in front of a judge -- someone's been eating too many donuts! (no offence to my police friends).
He was asking about outlets at a mall and there's nothing wrong at all with plugging in there, if you ask me. Then again, don't call on me to bail you out of jail for following my advice...
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DrivingRockies
Closed
It IS theft. Just because you steal a little bit, doesn't make it ok to do. And a prosecutor not taking someone to court doesn't make something legal. This is a rediculous question. JUST ASK
Canuck
Well-Known Member
It's not ridiculous at all. You're being ridiculous since it's a waste of time to run around asking for permission to use public wall outlets. I know people use mine and acquiescence is often deemed permission at law -- so they are arguably doing so with my permission. That's not theft. What's worse, you can't even make out theft charges but you're asking people to run around and track down mall attendants and detract them from their tasks so they can be asked to use outlets. I wouldn't want you to bother my staff to ask if you can plug in. If I didn't want you too, I would turn them off, or have a sign. Of course, if people were abusing them, the mall would know it and do something about it. I had someone plug a heater in and make an encampment, and I turned them off until he moved on.
Legality has nothing to do with it, as far as I am concerned. If you're not punished, then it's OK? You can steal as long as it's not much? It's up to me to lock everything down or, hey, if you can take it then it's fair game?
"No cop would write up a report," is also obviously wrong since message #7 has an example of exactly that.
Go to the mall office. Ask the desk attendant (whose job it is to field questions just like this) who is in charge and ask permission. It takes ten minutes and generates good will and maybe a little Tesla talk. The other option gets somebody so ticked off that they "run around and track down mall" maintenance staff who can "turn them off at the breaker" which will "detract them from their tasks", all the while reinforcing the "entitled Tesla owner" stereotype.
"No cop would write up a report," is also obviously wrong since message #7 has an example of exactly that.
Go to the mall office. Ask the desk attendant (whose job it is to field questions just like this) who is in charge and ask permission. It takes ten minutes and generates good will and maybe a little Tesla talk. The other option gets somebody so ticked off that they "run around and track down mall" maintenance staff who can "turn them off at the breaker" which will "detract them from their tasks", all the while reinforcing the "entitled Tesla owner" stereotype.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
We'll agree to disagree. Maybe it's because I come from a different culture and perspective, where we share a lot more, and take satisfaction in doing so (you know, the stereotypical polite obedient Canadian?) When I grew up we never even locked our doors. I still think it's pretty much the same here but I know it's not like that everywhere. I plug in at the Courthouse's 120 volt outlets here and would never even think of asking. The cops and sheriffs ask about it and there's not even an issue a theft is occurring. It sounds, quite frankly, absurd to me -- but I know people come from different places. We need to plug ICE vehicles into any outlets we can find (for block heaters) and people share, and offer to share. It's amazing how long you can run an extension cord.
In any event, peace. We'll agree to disagree. I wonder if you ask to use the washrooms at the mall or gas station if you're not shopping there? I guess one's a drain and the others an outlet but both cost the owner. I sure hope you're consistent. You wouldn't want to be stealing now?
In any event, peace. We'll agree to disagree. I wonder if you ask to use the washrooms at the mall or gas station if you're not shopping there? I guess one's a drain and the others an outlet but both cost the owner. I sure hope you're consistent. You wouldn't want to be stealing now?
Where you live, this is common accepted practice due to necessity (and block heaters are what about 800W?). Where I live it is not, power pulled from a building has a real additional cost to the party responsible for the bill (in your bathroom argument, an extra flush is minimal and also an expected part of doing business (unless there is patrons only sign), just don't wreck the place) (the first case of unauthorized computer use was prosecuted for the theft of electricity)
If OP asks, they will also find out if the circuits feed anything else which reduce the available capacity. Much better to not have the first conversation resulting from tripping someone's breaker.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
It's not an expected part of my business to let anyone use our office washrooms and I know that's the same for many businesses. But they are welcome to use the plug to charge their Tesla or Leaf. I don't mind them in the parking lot, but prefer them not to be in the office unless on business. Unlike you, I'd rather have people plug in outside than unloading inside, if you know what I mean. As to your comment on cost, I was responding to this part of someone else's comment:
That was why I made the bathroom comment.
As to the costs of the power provided by a 120 volt outlet to charge, yes, it's more than a block heater but it's still not much. I agree it's a "real cost" since of course it's real but unsubstantial. I've used a lot of chargers (or EVSEs to be precise) including HPWCs, at malls, office buildings, hotels, etc. where the power is offered for free, and not only to people who shop there -- and it's being pumped out at a much higher rate than that 120 volt outlet. In fact, when I first got my Tesla, and there were no superchargers in Canada, Sun Country had free 70 amp EVSE (not even associated with any business) and I still see the free one across from the Blue Moose in Hope that gets much less use now that they built the superchargers. To this day, I've never paid for a public charge except when using my Chademo adapter. No business is going broke offering it -- and I highly doubt it has any "real" effect on the bottom line, which is the real issue with most businesses.
So "stealing" power at 120 volts, as if it even registers in a real sense on a mall's overall energy use, still sounds silly to me. Yes, it costs the owner money -- no doubt about that -- but look on Tesla's destination chargers and you will see that many do not read "patron use only" -- I'd say it's about 50/50 -- so people are installing these things and providing free power at a much greater rate than that mall who, if they don't like it, can hit the breaker.
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Yes, it's just a different way of looking at things. Just know that from my perspective, it's not about the giver, it's entirely about the receiver having respect enough to not presume anything. In my world, expecting a kindness is an insult.
Interesting about the washrooms. Nope, I never use them unless I buy something, and I intentionally avoid low-margin items or anything that may be loss leaders. I also won't drink my wife's beverage at a fast food place if she's had a free refill. At supercharger stops at motels, I always buy something if I use the lobby. And so on.
I honestly appreciate the thoughtful and congenial reply.
This has been a great conversation. I never thought about some of the things this way. I suppose I am a bit inconsistent. I agree that the cost of the energy taken—$0.10 v 0.50—shouldn't define whether it is theft or not, but I guess that in practice it sort of does. People do plug in cell phones everywhere. At the airport, at businesses, etc, and no one really thinks of it as theft. Our Canadian friends plug in block heaters for their cars, and not theft. If I take a pen from my office, where I need to write, and take that pen home and use it there too, no one thinks of it as theft. If I take a ream of paper home or a large quantity of office supplies to use at home, that is theft. I tend to be an by the book sort of guy who asks first, but the cell phone analogy had me thinking since I do that at airports but generally wouldn't just go plug my car into a business outlet without asking. I actually, I did once sort of. I needed a charge to get back from a trip when a charger I had asked permission to use wasn't working, so parked my car by the window of my hotel and ran the charging cable into my room through the first floor window—but I justified that by noting that they rented me with the outlets to use, and they didn't say there were restrictions on what I could plug in! I guess perhaps this issue hasn't become a big enough issue yet for society to decide where the line is. I could imagine if a business/building owner found all of the exterior outlets being used to charge vehicles, they might get upset, even if the real cost is negligible, but maybe when electric vehicles become the norm, it will be viewed more like the issue of block heaters in Canada—sort of a need everyone has, and we will figure out where the lines are.
Racerx22b
@unplggdd on Instagram
So you’ve never charged any electric device anywhere in the world at a place where you didn’t personally pay the electric bill without first asking someone for permission?
The point is a public location like a mall that you can’t really assign a “face” to assumes anything available to the public will be used by the public. If it was a sole proprietor operation or a private residence then my feelings would be different. Technically many things we do could be interpreted as theft if you really wanna get into the weeds.
Let’s say you use the bathroom and take a few extra hand towels with you cause your nose is running. Is that theft? What if you take the entire stack? What if you take an entire TP roll? Who draws the line between what is reasonable and what is theft?
You walk in and sit in the store all day with no intent to buy anything to soak up the heat or air conditioning. Is that theft?
You grab a pen at the kiosk meant for signing your CC slip but instead write down someone’s phone number? You didn’t pay for that ink? Is that theft? What if you keep the pen?
Your car is overheating so you fill a gallon jug of water in the sink of the mall’s bathroom meant for washing your hands. Is that theft?
Just use common sense. That’s all. If you’re gonna plug in every day then sure, go ask someone. If it’s a once in a blue moon thing just plug in and move on with life. I mentioned the cell phone charging thing cause I see it everywhere and if that is theft we need to build a crap ton more prisons. Cause as someone said, theft is theft. The qty taken is irrelevant.
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I'm confused and perhaps I missed something. Are you saying that you might get stuck overnight at work? If that's the case, is there a reason you can't plug-in where you work?
Also, are there no hotels nearby? Sounds more comfortable than a cold night in the car and most hotels have an outdoor outlet they'll let you use if you're staying there.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
If you're always with the car while it's charging, I see no problem with just plugging in. If someone has a problem, you can apologize and move the car. If you ever leave the car while charging, be sure to leave your contact info clearly visible so they can contact you if there's a problem -- before they tow you away.
DFibRL8R
Active Member
I wonder why Rural King "America's Farm and Home Store" would install 6 outdoor outlets in that location? Holiday decorations?
I hate to be stereotypical but this sounds like the type of business that might not want a Tesla EV plugging into their store. Other than a random act of goodwill, they probably aren't looking to boost their image as EV friendly (probably won't be installing signs near these outlets designating them for EV charging). Maybe if you were plugging in your diesel truck to keep the engine block warm they would be ok? You could even try calling up and asking if you could plug in your "vehicle" to "keep the motor warm" if you got stuck in an emergency. I have had mostly positive responses when I have asked businesses (usually hotels that don't have an EV charger already) over the years but the occasional no due to stated concerns about overburdening the circuit.
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Are the 6 outlets directly in front of 6 parking stalls? Particularly, are they adjacent stalls?
If so, I'd guess that, there in PA, they are intended for customer block-heater use.
I'm generally an ask-first kind of guy, but if you can't get an authoritative answer, I'd be more inclined to assume it was OK in that scenario than if it was just a random exterior outlet somewhere not associated with a parking space.
In either case, I'd patronize the store and mention it as I was paying.
If so, I'd guess that, there in PA, they are intended for customer block-heater use.
I'm generally an ask-first kind of guy, but if you can't get an authoritative answer, I'd be more inclined to assume it was OK in that scenario than if it was just a random exterior outlet somewhere not associated with a parking space.
In either case, I'd patronize the store and mention it as I was paying.
You are using two different reference points. I replied to your first post regarding public areas, you responded with use of private areas.
False argument, and wrong. I've thought about a destination charger at work, but we are <5 miles from the Supercharger, so it doesn't make sense.
But to your implication, we have let wayward travelers use our office bathroom.
When my family owned a business many used the publicly accessible facilities without purchasing things. Even had the bathroom placed specifically for them.
EV charging is currently an unintended use if a building's exterior outlets. Since OP is not in a dire emergency, the socially (potentially legally) correct thing to do is contact (perhaps by phone) the mall/ store ahead if time to enquire about use. Get a contact name and number if approval is granted. Then you avoid issues like
Man arrested in park for charging cell phone (charges later dropped)
Man arrested for charging phone on train (charges later dropped)
Leaf can't get home after building manager confiscates cord
Avoid the hassle of dealing with an anti-ev manager or (overly?) attentive security guard get the permission. Along with verification that the outlets don't do other things like run roof heat tape.
I have had this situation a number of times, less so during the last two years because L2's and Superchargers have become so common. However, I always have asked. I have never, repeat never, been refused. Quite a few times the people I asked had no idea there were plugs available.
In one memorable case, at a hotel, everyone insisted there were no external plugs. I walked around found a plug, and asked a passing cook (turned out to be the executive Chef) if I could use it since the location was posted 'no parking'. He said sure and began to ask Tesla questions. A few months later I discovered they'd installed a couple L2's.
I think asking is wise, in part to help more people understand how easy it is for BEV's to be 'fuelled'. It never hurts, unless they refuse. The one time I almost had a refusal was resolved when I agreed not to leave the car unattended during charging.
In one memorable case, at a hotel, everyone insisted there were no external plugs. I walked around found a plug, and asked a passing cook (turned out to be the executive Chef) if I could use it since the location was posted 'no parking'. He said sure and began to ask Tesla questions. A few months later I discovered they'd installed a couple L2's.
I think asking is wise, in part to help more people understand how easy it is for BEV's to be 'fuelled'. It never hurts, unless they refuse. The one time I almost had a refusal was resolved when I agreed not to leave the car unattended during charging.
Tip: most electrical codes require a standard outlet located near outside AC units.
You should ask for a free coffee too! Or better yet, see if you can get out with a cup of coffee and no one noticing. It’s only about $0.50.
On a serious note, I realize the OP is asking about appropriateness and doesn’t intend to steal anything.
Personally, I’d ask first. If I couldn’t find anyone to ask and it was an emergency I’d stay with the car.
I feel like eventually the free electricity is going to dry up. It’s a business expense and if there isn’t a return (goodwill, advertising) it will stop. Right now, usage is small so it really isn’t a big deal, but if those outlets are used 24x7 it adds up.
I run a doctors office. One doctor. We purchased a bottled water dispenser, you know, the ones with the 5 gal bottles. People appreciated it for the first few months. Then we noticed water usage was going up, so started casually watching. Some folks were coming in and filling up 32 oz sport bottles. One person would even stop in for water when they were nearby. Not something we expected.
I’m also shocked to hear people complain that the “only hotel in a very remote town with a charger” would not let them charge while they were staying at a different hotel up the street. Do people expect to stay at one hotel and drop by a nearby hotel for the free breakfast?
Anyway... back to your regularly scheduled programming.
On a serious note, I realize the OP is asking about appropriateness and doesn’t intend to steal anything.
Personally, I’d ask first. If I couldn’t find anyone to ask and it was an emergency I’d stay with the car.
I feel like eventually the free electricity is going to dry up. It’s a business expense and if there isn’t a return (goodwill, advertising) it will stop. Right now, usage is small so it really isn’t a big deal, but if those outlets are used 24x7 it adds up.
I run a doctors office. One doctor. We purchased a bottled water dispenser, you know, the ones with the 5 gal bottles. People appreciated it for the first few months. Then we noticed water usage was going up, so started casually watching. Some folks were coming in and filling up 32 oz sport bottles. One person would even stop in for water when they were nearby. Not something we expected.
I’m also shocked to hear people complain that the “only hotel in a very remote town with a charger” would not let them charge while they were staying at a different hotel up the street. Do people expect to stay at one hotel and drop by a nearby hotel for the free breakfast?
Anyway... back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Ahem... I live in the same country as you, mind you on the other side of the continent, but to me, just common courtesy makes it that you should at least make an effort to ask.
If it's not yours, you ask if it's ok. Just courteous behavior you know?
Besides, your house was never locked, and mine neither back when I was a kid, nor anyone's in my neighborhood, but that was exactly because everyone understood an unlocked door wasn't a license to just go in and serve yourself with whatever's there.
I don't see why this should be any different when it concerns a business?
And yes I ask to use washrooms if I need to stop at a gas station.
