Porsche Taycan EPA range

[mongo]

Every plot I've seen of electric drivetrain efficiency shows that the efficiency is best at maximum power.

Fixed speed AC induction motors typically have peak efficiency at around 100% rated load.

Inverter drive motors have a sweet spot in the middle of the speed range and lower portion of the torque range. Torque requires current which increases your resistive losses.

Graph of Prius motor:

Do Electric Cars Have Gears? No. Here's Why - The Green Optimistic

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This technique, known as regenerative braking, is something other automakers use to varying degrees in their electric cars to help make sure there’s enough battery to get a driver where they want to go. And while there is an option to turn on regenerative braking in the Taycan, it’s still not nearly as aggressive as in some other EVs.

If you look at the velocity vs. time in the highway cycle test, it really is not that aggressive - the most aggressive stop appears to be about 30 seconds to go from 60mph to 0 (0.1g). That means at most about 58kW of regen, and it's probably not that high because the slowing starts even more gradually than that. (EDIT: Actually it's 46 seconds to go from 60mph to 0mph.)

I'd guess it's something like 30kW of slowing power that would be required to comply with the cycle. That's just not that much. It is possible to calculate it exactly from the velocity vs. time profile published by the EPA, but I am too lazy to do so. The Verge should have done that!

Still, it's possible that this could be part of the reason. I just think looking at the profile of that cycle that the discrepancy is just too large to be explained by this alone. It's true that we have no idea what mode the vehicle was tested in.

 

[EinSV]

They literally paid a company to come up with a drive cycle that makes their piss poor range look better.

There’s no excuses, this $200k car gets range about as good as a $35k Standard Range Model 3 (the few that are around).

Now that's just unfair.

To the $35K Standard Range Model 3, which has ~10% more range than the $200K Taycan (220 v. 201).

 

[VT_EE]

The Porsche Taycan needs a Mr. Fusion.

 

[Eno Deb]

Like many others I'm a bit shocked by the EPA estimated range. Trying to determine the shortfall between the EPA and WLTP isn't my expertise, but I found this posting on The Verge which may explain part of the difference: (Bolding text is my emphasis, not The Verge).

Porsche was never really going to match, let alone beat, the bountiful range that Tesla offers in its vehicles, especially with the company’s first electric car. The German automaker even made explicit choices with the car that prohibit the Taycan from getting more out of its battery pack, like having the car coast when the driver lifts off the throttle instead of automatically spinning the electric motors backward to recover energy. This technique, known as regenerative braking, is something other automakers use to varying degrees in their electric cars to help make sure there’s enough battery to get a driver where they want to go. And while there is an option to turn on regenerative braking in the Taycan, it’s still not nearly as aggressive as in some other EVs.

This doesn't pass the smell test. The Taycan does use regen braking, it just has a different operating principle from Tesla (blended brake). Every time the car slows down, whether you just let go of the acclerator or push the brake pedal, the car automatically regenerates as much as the rate of deceleration and the maximum power that can be fed to the battery allow. The friction brake only activates if the deceleration would produce more power than the battery can take at that moment. If anything, it should produce more regen power then a Tesla that is driven by an inexperienced driver (who might use the Tesla's brake pedal too early and too much).

 

[MP3Mike]

If AMCI wants to have any credibility for their numbers they should report the range for a Tesla using the same procedure. I think that would tell us a lot.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

It's pretty humorous to me that this entire thread seems to revolve around degrees of inefficiency.

The Taycan is horribly inefficient...I don't think the +/-5% really matters in the real world.

But at least it's reasonably quick on a track...

 

[mswlogo]

Germans will come up with a way to trick the EPA testing.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Germans will come up with a way to trick the EPA testing.

Ha. Looks like it is going well so far.

 

[nativewolf]

Ha. Looks like it is going well so far.

Not when that Window Sticker is going to say 201mile range. And hey...look at VW...worked for a few years and then they lost 50% of market cap potential.

 

[svp6]

This is going to kill a lot of the demand from previous Tesla owners. With a nice interior and good quality it was very appealing to me. However, at an expected 205-210 miles range for the 4S (extrapolating from the 287 vs 280 WLTP range) this is definitely a no go....

 

[lencap]

More info about range from Doug DeMuro. His video shows this display on the charging screen:

This is the screen from the top of the line Taycan Turbo S - it's at the 7:44 mark on this video:

That would suggest that the expected 100% range is 219 miles - not too far from the EPA number and likely a closer match to the combined scores of the Euro vs EPA range estimates. (NOTE: the display below shows a 313.5/Kwh/100 mile range - very impressive and competitive with Tesla, but it's only for a distance of 0.2 miles - not accurate for distance. Later in the video he comments that when he floored the accelerator for 4 minutes the car lost 20 miles of range).

I watched the entire video and frankly despite being a Tesla owner it's clear to me that Porsche has targeted this car for the typical Porsche market - upscale performance in every way. Whether range matters is the big question, but frankly I doubt that the buyers of this car are true EV disciples - they are likely more luxury car buyers, aware of brand image and all that implies (don't mean to offend anyone - just trying to address Porsche's expected buyer segment). As such ultimate range will not likely matter very much - the status level of the Porsche name will more than offset the shorter range. Add to that the design, exclusivity and quality that Porsche is known for and this will likely be a significant competitor for the Model S buyer. That's especially true since the Model S hasn't had a significant interior update since its launch, and has been "put on the back burner" to the dismay of many.

Watch the Doug DeMuro video for a complete review - the last part of the video when he's driving the car says it all in his facial expression - eyes wide open from the acceleration, quality, "Porscheness" of the car (Time code 28:17). His overall (combined) evaluation of the car is equally impressive - in the sports car category it tops the list, tied with the Mercedes AMG GT63 S, another 4 door upscale luxury/performance car. In the same category the Model S isn't listed, but the Model 3 Performance is and rates a bit lower. The Porsche scores 72 overall, the Model 3 67. The Porsche weekend score (emphasizing fun to drive) is 39/50 - the highest rated car. The Model 3 Performance is rated 31/50. More importantly the Porsche is rated 8/10 for Fun to Drive, the Model 3 is rated 6 - quite a difference. The Daily Driving Score is 33 for the Taycan, 36 for the Tesla. Clearly Porsche is going for its traditional market - fun toy, high quality, prestige branding. (Overall ratings time code on video: 34:40).

After the EPA score came out I thought that would be a deal breaker for the Taycan - after watching the video I came away with the opposite opinion. Porsche is Porsche and their car design choices reflect that. If you can afford a $200K car you don't want to see hundreds of them on the road with you - for Porsche that seems to be the whole point of the Taycan and the design choices they made.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So most likely the Turbo S has ~204 miles range in its least efficient configuration, and ~217 miles in its most efficient configuration.

That would suggest that the expected 100% range is 219 miles - not too far from the EPA number and likely a closer match to the combined scores of the Euro vs EPA range estimates.

Looks like that is pretty much in line with the projections if the published EPA numbers for the Taycan Turbo were the worst-case configuration. However, this assumes this meter is not a guess-o-meter. And the 20 miles consumed in 4 minutes suggests to me that it's probably not an energy meter. That would be about 120kW average power output: 400Wh/rmi*20rmi/4minutes*60min/hr = 120kW. Seems unlikely, even with the driving he was doing. No idea though.

313.5kWh/100 mile range, very impressive and competitive with Tesla,

Lol. Not exactly. That's 3.14kWh/mi. Obviously thrown off by the short distance as you said. Though perhaps that's their standby electronics for cabin heating coming into play! (Kidding.) It looks like he has been using an average of ~250W over 2.5 hours (316kWh/100mi*0.2mi/2.5hr = 253W), mostly sitting in the parking lot. So the standby electronic drain is not excessive. However, if you look at the meter ticking up it uses 6Wh in 9 seconds (316kWh/100mi - 313kWh/100mi)*0.2mi/9s*3600s/hr = 2.4kW), so that's using 2.4kW just sitting there in that portion of the video - perhaps he had the heater turned on for that time period. It's super nice having a consumption meter that updates every second!

 

[FlatSix911]

More info about range from Doug DeMuro. His video shows this display on the charging screen:

View attachment 487476

This is the screen from the top of the line Taycan Turbo S - it's at the 7:44 mark on this video:

That would suggest that the expected 100% range is 219 miles - not too far from the EPA number and likely a closer match to the combined scores of the Euro vs EPA range estimates. (NOTE: the display below shows a 313.5/Kwh/100 mile range - very impressive and competitive with Tesla, but it's only for a distance of 0.2 miles - not accurate for distance. Later in the video he comments that when he floored the accelerator for 4 minutes the car lost 20 miles of range).

View attachment 487480

I watched the entire video and frankly despite being a Tesla owner it's clear to me that Porsche has targeted this car for the typical Porsche market - upscale performance in every way. Whether range matters is the big question, but frankly I doubt that the buyers of this car are true EV disciples - they are likely more luxury car buyers, aware of brand image and all that implies (don't mean to offend anyone - just trying to address Porsche's expected buyer segment). As such ultimate range will not likely matter very much - the status level of the Porsche name will more than offset the shorter range. Add to that the design, exclusivity and quality that Porsche is known for and this will likely be a significant competitor for the Model S buyer. That's especially true since the Model S hasn't had a significant interior update since its launch, and has been "put on the back burner" to the dismay of many.

Watch the Doug DeMuro video for a complete review - the last part of the video when he's driving the car says it all in his facial expression - eyes wide open from the acceleration, quality, "Porscheness" of the car (Time code 28:17). His overall (combined) evaluation of the car is equally impressive - in the sports car category it tops the list, tied with the Mercedes AMG GT63 S, another 4 door upscale luxury/performance car. In the same category the Model S isn't listed, but the Model 3 Performance is and rates a bit lower. The Porsche scores 72 overall, the Model 3 67. The Porsche weekend score (emphasizing fun to drive) is 39/50 - the highest rated car. The Model 3 Performance is rated 31/50. More importantly the Porsche is rated 8/10 for Fun to Drive, the Model 3 is rated 6 - quite a difference. The Daily Driving Score is 33 for the Taycan, 36 for the Tesla. Clearly Porsche is going for its traditional market - fun toy, high quality, prestige branding. (Overall ratings time code on video: 34:40).

After the EPA score came out I thought that would be a deal breaker for the Taycan - after watching the video I came away with the opposite opinion. Porsche is Porsche and their car design choices reflect that. If you can afford a $200K car you don't want to see hundreds of them on the road with you - for Porsche that seems to be the whole point of the Taycan and the design choices they made.

TLDR...

 

[FlatSix911]

Here is the final nail in the coffin... Teslas charge faster than Taycan, due to Porsche's low efficiency - Electrek

Because of Porsche’s low efficiency, it turns out that almost every Tesla adds more range per minute at peak charge rate than the Taycan does – and some by a significant margin. We learned this week that the Porsche Taycan has a 69mpge rating from the EPA. This is lower than any electric car currently on sale in the US.

The Model 3, in contrast, has the highest efficiency of any car ever rated by the EPA. In fact, at 141mpge, the 2020 Model 3 SR+ is more than twice as efficient as the Taycan Turbo. The Model 3 Long Range scores 130mpge according to the EPA. The Model S is no slouch either, with up to 111 mpge. What do all these numbers mean? Let’s look at the approximate miles added per ten minutes at peak rate:

• Porsche Taycan Turbo, 490Wh/mi, 250kW/350kW charge rate: ~85 miles in ten minutes of charging (119 after promised update)
• Model 3 SR+, 240Wh/mi, 170kW: ~118 miles in ten minutes
• Model 3 LR, 260Wh/mi, 250kW: ~160 miles in ten minutes
• Model S LR, 300Wh/mi, 200kW: ~111 miles in ten minutes

 

[FlatSix911]

Interesting video from my local Porsche Club of America chapter … a look at the unique technology from Porsche.
PCA Spotlight: We go underneath and inside the Porsche Taycan at Tech Tactics West | Porsche Club of America

PCA Spotlight: We go underneath and inside the Porsche Taycan at Tech Tactics West

In late November, PCA hosted Tech Tactics West at Porsche’s dealer technician training facility in Eastvale, CA and fortunately there were plenty of Porsche Taycans on hand as well as Lukas Kraemer, Manager of Complete Vehicle, Taycan, to give a presentation to attendees. Kraemer went a step further and allowed us to film a tour of components underneath the EV, as well as inside a car without its interior. In the video above, you’ll learn about the three-chamber air suspension, battery tech — including how the cooling system works — and more.

 

[Curious George]

The important question is the range. The heat pump can help quite a lot in winter range.
The battery: Sophisticated thermal management, 800-volt system voltage

Is the range shown on dash for the total battery capacity or just the usable part? I think I read somewhere that Taycan reserves some battery capacity. In a hydrogen car, people can keep driving for 30 odd miles with 0 range on the dash.
I am very curious, if Taycan, if it has the reserve battery capacity, will keep going for few more miles in addition to the displayed range.
These will be rare occasions. It's better than getting stuck, even if it is not good for battery longevity.

I guess we have to wait for few months to find these real range experiments.

 

[FlatSix911]

Interesting video … Why The Porsche Taycan's Disappointing Efficiency Matters

 

[Needsdecaf]

Interesting video … Why The Porsche Taycan's Disappointing Efficiency Matters

You should see some of the sh!t I'm taking on Rennlist from one idiot poster for this video. His belief is that the Taycan's EPA result somehow "doesn't count" because the other "data points" (meaning the AMCI test and also results from other testers) show that the car clearly can go more than 201 miles without hypermiling.

I must say that I am very curious about this. Personally I believe that the real world range is 250 miles and can't understand why this car does so poorly on the EPA test.

 

[axhoaxho]

Thanks for the video, Jason is always very informative. The Taycan Turbo is just too heavy and not efficient enough, the range is rather low and the price is pretty high.

Frankly, if I were to spend my money on a Taycan Turbo, I might as well just go for the Panamera Turbo or Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid, and call it a day.

Interesting video … Why The Porsche Taycan's Disappointing Efficiency Matters