Potential 0-60mph Model 3P+ vs. Model P85D

[Maximilien]

The usable battery of 3PD+ is 78 kwh. (total 80.5) Currently 3.5s
The usable battery of P85D is about 77 khw. (total 81?) Currently 2.8s. with ludicrous mode, 3.2s without it.

But Model 3 is 1000 pounds lighter.

A thought crossed my mind that Tesla is purposely "significantly" downplaying the power of 3P.

If Tesla really pushes hard and let's assume it doesn't care about cannibalizing P100D, do you think 3P can potentially go lower than 2.8 seconds? Let's say Ludicrous mode for Model 3 can be factored in, too. It seems it can beat P85D by weight alone.

Or, am I having too simplistic view of the Model 3 power and overestimate the 3P?

 

[glide]

The motors are also different in the model 3 which could be a limiting factor.

It’s not all based on battery pack size.

 

[Daniel in SD]

0-60 isn't limited by power anyway. The Model 3 doesn't reach peak power until ~45mph.

 

[Maximilien]

The motors are also different in the model 3 which could be a limiting factor.

It’s not all based on battery pack size.

Could that be that the rear motor in P85D much more stronger than that of the 3P?

 

[Crispix]

I suspect Tesla is purposely nerfing the Model 3 in all its configurations. We already know the only difference between the P3D and the AWD is lot sorting and software. They are being very careful not to interfere with Ludicrous sales on the Model S. And that's ok.

 

[glide]

Could that be that the rear motor in P85D much more stronger than that of the 3P?

Yes

 

[FlyNavy01]

It's limited by battery discharge rate. The 2170's are more energy dense but less power dense than the 18650's.

P100D's discharge at ~5.8C (580kW) max, while the P3D is currently limited to ~4.5C (335kW).

 

[ℬête Noire]

....while the P3D is currently limited to ~4.5C (335kW).

The question is whether or not the LR pack is capable of handling say 5C w/o significant longterm damage. Unlikely that'd particular number would get 0-60 to sub-3s, but it should get the time down to 3s flat (it'd knock off about 10% so around 0.3s). Tesla very likely was conservative on this until they could complete proper longterm internal field testing. It also helps them to have a bump in their pocket in case they need it in a spec pissing match with a competitor. But until likely to see it until Tesla does the lusted after/rumoured/demanded Model S tech refresh, so they can keep some much needed differentiation between the Model 3 P and the upper end of the Model S line.

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

It's limited by battery discharge rate. The 2170's are more energy dense but less power dense than the 18650's.

P100D's discharge at ~5.8C (580kW) max, while the P3D is currently limited to ~4.5C (335kW).

Doesn’t the Ingineerix hack imply the P3D battery could be good for 370kW? (Model 3 Factory Mode - Battery Pack Info Revealed : teslamotors)

The P100D is no contest, but what about the P85D as OP mentioned? Wikipedia lists 345kW and 397kW for the max battery output of the 85D and 85DL, respectively.

If all that is true, it seems like the P3D wouldn’t be hampered by its battery/inverter. The motors are the bigger question mark in my mind, and Tesla could easily software limit them without telling what they are really capable of.

 

[animorph]

Ludicrous also uses the fancy inconel contactors.

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

Ludicrous also uses the fancy inconel contactors.

That’s true, but I don’t know if it would be necessary on a Model 3 if we are only going for 1200 amps like Ingineerix implied the battery could handle. Inconel made it so the S could go from 1300 to 1500 amps max. Elon Musk’s recent “Ludicrous” announcement hints at more synergy between Tesla and SpaceX

 

[PhaseWhite]

Ludicrous also uses the fancy inconel contactors.

My non P Model S90D pack discharges at 370KW and it doesn't need iconel... So I'd doubt the Model 3 pack would need it at that power output.

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

Could that be that the rear motor in P85D much more stronger than that of the 3P?

Based on https://i0.wp.com/www.mountainpassp...8/08/Tesla-Model-3-SOC-Dyno-Results.jpg?ssl=1 we know the 3 RWD motor is good for at least 321 lb-ft until about 5000-6000 RPM (42-50 mph) where the battery starts being the limiter. For comparison, a P85 RWD makes 443 lb-ft per Wikipedia. But no telling what the software is doing in either case to hold back.

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

I’m going to guess they could push the 3 below 3 seconds with rollout and 3 flat without rollout. To compare apples to apples, P85DL does 2.8s with rollout, 4936 lbs, 397kW (battery limited, 532hp). P3D has been measured at 3.3s with rollout, 4072 lbs, 335kW (449hp). Even if we assume 335kW is the absolute limit, P3D should be 9.07 lb/HP vs. 9.28 lb/HP for P85DL, so I doubt they are using the full 335kW. It already “should” beat the P85DL if the P3D battery is good for 370kW.

 

[ba2002]

I’m going to guess they could push the 3 below 3 seconds with rollout and 3 flat without rollout. To compare apples to apples, P85DL does 2.8s with rollout, 4936 lbs, 397kW (battery limited, 532hp). P3D has been measured at 3.3s with rollout, 4072 lbs, 335kW (449hp). Even if we assume 335kW is the absolute limit, P3D should be 9.07 lb/HP vs. 9.28 lb/HP for P85DL, so I doubt they are using the full 335kW. It already “should” beat the P85DL if the P3D battery is good for 370kW.

P3D has been measured @ 3.13 with rollout.

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

P3D has been measured @ 3.13 with rollout.

True, but I discounted that since I thought he was slightly downhill. In any case, we’d probably need around 2.7 with rollout to break 3 without rollout. Not sure if the 3 is capable of that but maybe.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You guys are talking about horsepower but by the time the motor reaches peak horsepower you’re already going 45mph. What’s needed is for the motor to reach peak horsepower sooner. The 3 could easily do 0-60 faster with lower gearing. Maybe they should offer that as an option for all the 0-60 obsessed folks

 

[UnknownSoldier]

As long as Tesla's road cars use a single-speed fixed gearing ratio transmission, there will always be a compromise between 0-60 and performance at higher speeds. That's just how it is.

The new Roadster 2020 though, if the rumors are true that they will finally have the 2-speed transmission that was originally mooted for the original back in 2008, then we're gonna see some s**t.

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

You guys are talking about horsepower but by the time the motor reaches peak horsepower you’re already going 45mph. What’s needed is for the motor to reach peak horsepower sooner. The 3 could easily do 0-60 faster with lower gearing. Maybe they should offer that as an option for all the 0-60 obsessed folks

Torque times RPM is proportional to horsepower, and torque basically determines instantaneous acceleration. At low RPM we have constant torque (motor/software limited phase). Horsepower ramps linearly until it peaks around 45mph (battery limited phase), and then torque starts dropping off.

As a result, there is some ideal gear ratio for 0-60: lower gearing provides more initial torque but also increases RPM faster, making the battery limited phase arrive sooner due to motor back EMF. I’m not sure whether a lower gear would help or not.

 

[Maximilien]

You guys are talking about horsepower but by the time the motor reaches peak horsepower you’re already going 45mph. What’s needed is for the motor to reach peak horsepower sooner. The 3 could easily do 0-60 faster with lower gearing. Maybe they should offer that as an option for all the 0-60 obsessed folks

LOL I thought everyone who orders 3P is obsessed with 0-60. For those who don't, I think they are ordering AWD non-P??