Rumors - upcoming features, costs, etc.

[ElSupreme]

AWD is ordered on 80% of Audi's. You've got to offer this to remain competitive in the luxury sedan market. Road and Track found that AWD handled better than RWD in most situations, and it would certainly improve handling and acceleration of the S. Tesla has had plenty of time to get AWD ready for the S while they have been trying to get those blinkin' Falcon door to work. I suspect that currently it's just a timing issue being debated in Marketing and Sales.

But how many Audis come without AWD? I have a feeling 80% sold with AWD is more because they just put a Haldex AWD system in every car that has enough torque and power coming out of the gearbox to support it. Note all 1.8 TFSI and 2.0 TDI drive trains are only FWD, and the 2.0 TFSI with a CVT are all FWD only. The only real outlier is the Q3 which has a AWD capable 2.0 TFSI and a 6AT with and without Quatro, or so says their specs.

Without - No option to add
A3 1.8 TFSI (all trims)
A3 2.0 TDI (all trims)
A3 Cabriolet 1.8 TFSI (all trims)

Without - Option to add
A4 2.0 TFSI CVT only ($900 option to get 6MT and AWD, $2,100 option to get 8AT and AWD)
A6 2.0 TFSI CVT only ($2,100 option to get 8AT and AWD)
Q3 2.0 TFSI ($2,100 option to get AWD)

With - No option to remove
A3 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
S3 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
A4 2.0 TFSI (all MT and AT trims, no CVT trims)
S4 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
A6 2.0 TFSI (all AT trims, no CVT trims)
A6 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
A6 3.0 TDI (all trims)
S6 4.0 TFSI (all trims)
A7 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
A7 3.0 TDI (all trims)
S7 4.0 TFSI (all trims)
RS7 4.0 TFSI (all trims)
A8 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
A8 4.0 TFSI (all trims)
S8 4.0 TFSI (all trims)
A8L 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
A8L 3.0 TDI (all trims)
A8L 4.0 TFSI (all trims)
A8L W12 6.3 FSI (all trims)
allroad 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
Q5 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
Q5 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
Q5 3.0 TDI (all trims)
Q5 hybrid 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
SQ5 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
Q7 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
Q7 3.0 TDI (all trims)
A5 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
S5 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
RS5 V8 (all trims)
TT 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
TTS 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
R8 V8 (all trims)
R8 V10 (all trims)
R8 V10 plus (all trims)
A3 Cabriolet 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
A5 Cabriolet 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
S5 Cabriolet 3.0 TFSI (all trims)
RS5 Cabriolet V8 (all trims)
TT Roadster 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
TTS Roadster 2.0 TFSI (all trims)
R8 Spyder V8 (all trims)
R8 Spyder V10 (all trims)

 

[mgboyes]

You've got to offer this to remain competitive in the luxury sedan market.

But Tesla cannot make cars fast enough to keep up with demand. "Remaining competitive" is meaningless in this context.

 

[bonnie]

So when I picked up my Model S from the service center today the service advisor told me that there ARE 4WD Model Ss currently in the wild! He said that within a few months they will be available for sale.

I've been saying for awhile (six months maybe?) that I expected the Model S AWD to be offered in Q3 this year. I wish I had said Q4 , but this still fits with what has been planned for quite some time afaik.

 

[breser]

AWD is ordered on 80% of Audi's. You've got to offer this to remain competitive in the luxury sedan market. Road and Track found that AWD handled better than RWD in most situations, and it would certainly improve handling and acceleration of the S. Tesla has had plenty of time to get AWD ready for the S while they have been trying to get those blinkin' Falcon door to work. I suspect that currently it's just a timing issue being debated in Marketing and Sales.

Audi as a brand is largely built on the AWD feature. So of course most of them are sold with it.

I just don't see Tesla shipping an AWD Model S before the Model X reservations they have now are delivered. If some of the X reservations they have right now are choosing waiting for an X for AWD rather than buying an S today they risk having the AWD S cannibalize their X reservations. That might be good for them short term (since they would end up with cash in hand). But long term it might take some of the luster off the company.

The other problem is the only difference between the S and the X they have right now is AWD and the body looks. We don't know anything about range, performance, seating, features, etc... In fact the only feature they mention at all on the reservation page is AWD.

So my bet wouldn't be AWD until Q2 or Q3 2015 for the S. With that being dependent on having delivered 10-15k X vehicles by that point. If X delivery slips I expect AWD S to be delayed as well.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

AWD is ordered on 80% of Audi's. You've got to offer this to remain competitive in the luxury sedan market. Road and Track found that AWD handled better than RWD in most situations, and it would certainly improve handling and acceleration of the S. Tesla has had plenty of time to get AWD ready for the S while they have been trying to get those blinkin' Falcon door to work. I suspect that currently it's just a timing issue being debated in Marketing and Sales.

Elon Musk made a comment about the falcon wing doors but he didn't say that AWD wasn't an issue.

 

[bonnie]

I just don't see Tesla shipping an AWD Model S before the Model X reservations they have now are delivered. If some of the X reservations they have right now are choosing waiting for an X for AWD rather than buying an S today they risk having the AWD S cannibalize their X reservations. That might be good for them short term (since they would end up with cash in hand). But long term it might take some of the luster off the company.

The other problem is the only difference between the S and the X they have right now is AWD and the body looks. We don't know anything about range, performance, seating, features, etc... In fact the only feature they mention at all on the reservation page is AWD.

So my bet wouldn't be AWD until Q2 or Q3 2015 for the S. With that being dependent on having delivered 10-15k X vehicles by that point. If X delivery slips I expect AWD S to be delayed as well.

Elon Musk made a comment about the falcon wing doors but he didn't say that AWD wasn't an issue.

You're very possibly correct. So many rumors fly internally that it's possible to hear conflicting things on the same day. We'll see when we see .

 

[Bugeater]

I suspect they are just testing a few Ss with AWD in prep for the X. Would make sense to me. I think folks may be right that it could take away from the X if they release an AWD S now. Maybe well after the X is out... We all know Tesla Time.

 

[tezco]

You've got to offer this to remain competitive in the luxury sedan market.

But Tesla cannot make cars fast enough to keep up with demand. "Remaining competitive" is meaningless in this context.

If so, then what is the purpose of designing and then sending the X to market? This will just pull sales away from the S.

 

[breser]

If so, then what is the purpose of designing and then sending the X to market? This will just pull sales away from the S.

Pull sales away from the S to the presumably higher base priced X. Even if their margin is the same they'll make more money off building and delivering an X than they will on an S. Given that apparently they'll both be made on the same line, they're just trading work for a higher profit vehicle. So I suspect it's a great way for the to extract more profit (which can be spent on the Model 3) from the S platform.

 

[darthy001]

But how many Audis come without AWD? I have a feeling 80% sold with AWD is more because they just put a Haldex AWD system in every car that has enough torque and power coming out of the gearbox to support it.

Isnt Haldex only used on the smaller models with the engine mounted "the wrong way"? Highend Audis have the real permanent Quattro and that is not Haldex-based.

And here in Norway most audis are offered as 2WD as well as 4WD. Dont know the stats, but I've personally owned a 2WD A5 which I loved having back in my bachelor days. A1/A3 is more or less exlusively sold as 2WD here. I would guess A4/A6 is at least 50% 2WD here as well. But that is mainly due to cost these cars. I assume the numbers are different in germany for example.

 

[InTheShadows]

Pull sales away from the S to the presumably higher base priced X. Even if their margin is the same they'll make more money off building and delivering an X than they will on an S. Given that apparently they'll both be made on the same line, they're just trading work for a higher profit vehicle. So I suspect it's a great way for the to extract more profit (which can be spent on the Model 3) from the S platform.

I'm pretty sure Elon stated that the base price of the X would be less than the S and that the S would always be the best performing car.

Putting the AWD in the S a few months before X rollout is a very smart move for many of the reasons listed above.

 

[ElSupreme]

Isnt Haldex only used on the smaller models with the engine mounted "the wrong way"? Highend Audis have the real permanent Quattro and that is not Haldex-based.

And here in Norway most audis are offered as 2WD as well as 4WD. Dont know the stats, but I've personally owned a 2WD A5 which I loved having back in my bachelor days. A1/A3 is more or less exlusively sold as 2WD here. I would guess A4/A6 is at least 50% 2WD here as well. But that is mainly due to cost these cars. I assume the numbers are different in germany for example.

Yes you are right. I think they use Haldex in the A3 and smaller. And use their own torsion differential in all the larger models.

 

[scaesare]

I'm pretty sure Elon stated that the base price of the X would be less than the S and that the S would always be the best performing car.

Putting the AWD in the S a few months before X rollout is a very smart move for many of the reasons listed above.

Really?

That's the first I've heard of Elon stating the X would be less. I have read many assumptions that it would be slightly more...

Any references to that?

Thanks.

 

[Madartist]

I'm pretty sure Elon stated that the base price of the X would be less than the S and that the S would always be the best performing car.

Putting the AWD in the S a few months before X rollout is a very smart move for many of the reasons listed above.

I don't see how the base price for Model X could be LESS than Model S. At best, they've said that it would be comparable to the S. When taking into account the larger car, standard AWD, and falcon wing doors, I don't think it's possible for X to be less than S.

 

[InTheShadows]

Really?

That's the first I've heard of Elon stating the X would be less. I have read many assumptions that it would be slightly more...

Any references to that?

Thanks.

I remember seeing it a few months ago. I think it was in the email to reservation holders. I'll dig for it later today when I have more time.

 

[bonnie]

I'm pretty sure Elon stated that the base price of the X would be less than the S and that the S would always be the best performing car.

Putting the AWD in the S a few months before X rollout is a very smart move for many of the reasons listed above.

Really?

That's the first I've heard of Elon stating the X would be less. I have read many assumptions that it would be slightly more...

Any references to that?

Thanks.

I remember seeing it a few months ago. I think it was in the email to reservation holders. I'll dig for it later today when I have more time.

Not in any email I've received. I'm pretty sure I'd remember seeing it would be less . Right now, my assumption is (at a minimum) a surcharge of +10%. Hopefully that will keep my expectations in line with reality.

 

[InTheShadows]

Model S 4WD

Not in any email I've received. I'm pretty sure I'd remember seeing it would be less . Right now, my assumption is (at a minimum) a surcharge of +10%. Hopefully that will keep my expectations in line with reality.

I keep seeing 55,000 base on the Internet but not from credible sources. That's the number I remembered. I looked at the June email thread here and it is not in that email. That was the time frame though that rumors were flying about 55k. Sorry for digging up old rumors.

I actually thought I heard it in a conference call or some other interview. That will take more time to research. :6

 

[bonnie]

I keep seeing 55,000 base on the Internet but not from credible sources. That's the number I remembered. I looked at the June email thread here and it is not in that email. That was the time frame though that rumors were flying about 55k. Sorry for digging up old rumors.

I actually thought I heard it in a conference call or some other interview. That will take more time to research. :6

A lot of news reports have confused the price of the X with the entry price for the Model 3. You have a lot of sorting out to do. I've always heard it will be slightly more and that's what I've budgeted for. Plus some (because I know I'm going to just want all the options.)

 

[breser]

I keep seeing 55,000 base on the Internet but not from credible sources. That's the number I remembered. I looked at the June email thread here and it is not in that email. That was the time frame though that rumors were flying about 55k. Sorry for digging up old rumors.

I actually thought I heard it in a conference call or some other interview. That will take more time to research. :6

A lot of news reports have confused the price of the X with the entry price for the Model 3. You have a lot of sorting out to do. I've always heard it will be slightly more and that's what I've budgeted for. Plus some (because I know I'm going to just want all the options.)

There has been a lot of confusion between Tesla's 3 phase plan and the cars. Probably because Tesla talked about it like each phase was going to be a single car. I've seen plenty of people saying their 3rd vehicle (or next after the S) would be a more mass market vehicle. I think they've found that the economies of scale haven't been reached to make the mass market vehicle they want. Thus why they are building the gigafactory. Because of this the X is also a Phase 2 vehicle. I believe that 55k base to be about the Phase 3 vehicle, which will end up being the Model 3.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

No Model S AWD before Model X.

Why not?

Because Musk and company have said that Model X is going to be their first AWD car. Launching an AWD Model S prior to Model X would take the thunder away from Model X launch as well as cannibalizing sales before it even shipped. It won't happen. Wait and see. I'm usually right about these things.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm pretty sure Elon stated that the base price of the X would be less than the S and that the S would always be the best performing car.

Putting the AWD in the S a few months before X rollout is a very smart move for many of the reasons listed above.

I'm not sure where you heard this, but all expectations are that the X will be priced about 5%-10% higher than the S.